TorquayFans.com | Torquay United Fans Forum

I have to say in my option that this has been the worst season I have known in so many years following Torquay United.Boy we have had some abysmel ,clueless and quite frankly shocking teams that did not deserve to stay in the league which was frustrating enough but this team I can't believe.We have some good players,young,should be enthusiastic and,we don't get thrashed every week so the frustration is why are we bound for the conference in this fourth division where there is not particularly an adoundence of good teams,let's face it this is the fourth division and we are playing teams no better than us on paper ,yes I know on paper dose not count but to loose most weeks by one goal is annoying and frustrating.We have had threads on the directors and the management but this season is driving me nuts.Let's just get to the conference or even conference south and enjoy a season of tranquility,win some loose some and get back to loving football again.

This is also the most depressing and disappointing season for me as I didn't see this coming and feel angry and frustrated because in my opinion it shouldn't have happened. If your favourite player is Tommy Northcott, Frenchgull, you go back as far as me ! Yes - we've been there suffering some poor seasons, the worst two being when Dave Webb was in charge and when Roberts brought the club to its knees in the guise of chairman. In both of those seasons, we could see how useless we were and we were resigned to our fate (for the one and only time in over 50 years, I stopped going to Plainmoor in the Webb season as I was disgusted at the shameful way in which good players and decent guys such as John Impey and John Sims were treated). This season, we started with what looked a squad capable of at least holding its own in the division. But from an uninspiring 1 - 1 draw home to Wimbledon (Downes got a late equaliser to gain us a point) we started to realise that this wasn't a great squad after all.

Even after Christmas, I thought Hargreaves would shake things up and get this bunch of under-performers into an organised team that would move away from the relegation fight. But it hasn't happened of course - in fact, it's got worse. To be 10 points adrift in what everyone has agreed has been a very poor division this season is as bad as it gets and must go down as one of the club's worst ever seasons.

After this coming weekend we could be mathematically relegated(Correct me if im wrong as I havn't fully checked the full fixture list) with 4 games to play, Yes I agree, the worst I've seen.

DJ Gull wrote:After this coming weekend we could be mathematically relegated(Correct me if im wrong as I havn't fully checked the full fixture list) with 4 games to play, Yes I agree, the worst I've seen.

We'll be relegated on Saturday if the following happens:

We lose away at Bristol Rovers
Wycombe win at Newport
Exeter beat Cheltenham at home
Morecambe avoid defeat at Fleetwood
Portsmouth avoid defeat at Dagenham

Part of me hopes the above happens, although it's unlikely. I just want it over and done with and really don't want our relegation to be confirmed on Easter Monday...

tommyg wrote: We'll be relegated on Saturday if the following happens:

We lose away at Bristol Rovers
Wycombe win at Newport
Exeter beat Cheltenham at home
Morecambe avoid defeat at Fleetwood
Portsmouth avoid defeat at Dagenham

Part of me hopes the above happens, although it's unlikely. I just want it over and done with and really don't want our relegation to be confirmed on Easter Monday...

I reckon it will be mathematically confirmed on Good Friday, home to Dagenham & R. What's the betting Brian Saah will score ???

Tomogull

Could you or others give me a bit of a background on the Webb era as I am completely in the dark about what went on - living so far away - it was before I became a converted TUFC fan

I know my father in law used to get angry whenever I asked - so much so that he could hardly speak with apoplexy.

Unfortunately now he is not well enough to speak at all now after his stroke.

It seems to be that the Webb era was a "dark age that cant be spoken of " for fear of bringing it back ( have we this season?) - but without wishing to bring back painful memories - I would genuinely like to know

TW

It's my worst since I started going down to Plainmoor as a 10 yea old in 1969. Those Saturday evening kick off and catching the football special from Newton Abbot bus station are long gone now. Even in the previous relegation season at least we were cr!p with equally cr!p players but this season??? It looks a useful squad to me but this is worse than disappointing. Total capitulation and just how many 0 -1s can I take????????

Got a feeling that this will be our last ever season as a FL club and, I hope to be proved wrong, could be the begining of the end for the club.

There's always a chance of coming back, but obviously changes will need to be made. According to the official club website, there are 13 people on the board. Unlucky. One of them will have to go..

What has really angered me is that, in the last few seasons, the money clubs pay to league 2 players has become stupid. The Herald Express reported on 3rd March that "staff costs rose from £1,512,796 to £1,767,837" last season. Do the maths and work out wind kind of salaries some of the "staff" must be on to cost £1,767,837 last season (to give you an idea, 50 "staff" would average over £35,000 a year to get to that figure, 40 "staff" would average over £44,000 a year). Does anyone think ANY of the current squad are worth anywhere approaching those figures???

Do "staff costs" also include payments to ex-managers?

I think this has probably been my worst season as well.

There have been other bad years, like 85, 86, 96 and 2007 - the four previous times we finished bottom. But they came during the Webb years, Bateson's attempt to do everything on the cheap in 96 and the Roberts disaster in 07.

This season and last season just never need have happened. The previous 4 were sort of unavoidable in a way that this season and last were not, It is unnecessary. Two years ago we had just completed our 4 play-off campaign in 5 years. There was so much to build on.

It could be that Ling's illness was the catalyst for this. Before he went sick, I imagined he would be here for years - TUFC seemed a steady ship that had recovered well after the upset Buckle's departure had caused. Two successive play-off campaigns, a new stand - there was much to be optimistic about but a number of catastrophic decisions relating to management since Ling went ill have put us where we are...

Some are much easier to point out with hindsight but in reality they shouldn't have been...

1) The club waited for far too long to see if Ling was coming back - although this was difficult because I suppose at first, they were not sure how long he would be off but I think they could have been a little more proactive at that point.

2) The appointment of Alan Knill (as a stop-gap, while Ling was off) worried me at the time, he had an awful record as a manager, but I guess the board thought that 'beggars can't be choosers' and his record for us last season was pretty unremarkable.

3) The crucial decision was getting rid of Ling. At the time, I didn't see how Ling could come back, although I felt he was unlucky to lose his job. The reasons I thought he probably couldn't come back was because so many had turned against him and it would only take a couple of bad results for people to turn against him. I didn't think he would get a fair crack of the whip and couldn't see how it would work as he would have had a fair chunk of the fanbase against him. I think, however, it was clearly the wrong decision to sack him, although amongst the loudest defenders of his from the playing staff were Mansell/Nicholson and that might tell us all we need to know.

4) No thorough recruitment process for Ling's replacement. The board - or at least someone on the board - jumped on the bandwagon that was clamouring for Knill. That should teach the board not to listen to supporters - except for me - as what appears to have been fan-pleasing moves have cost us.

5) Appointing Knill - his previous record and his record with us, sort of spells that one out to everyone other than Stefano who chooses to look at just 5 games, of which the last 3 of that 5 produced 1 point.

6) Not getting rid of Knill early enough. Many of said it would be too late to wait until after Christmas to get rid of him. A new manager arriving in November say, would have had two months to assess the squad before the transfer window, not a matter of days.

7) Again, not undergoing a thorough recruitment process when they finally saw sense and got rid of Knill. You think they would have learnt from last time - but no, they knew who they wanted, like they, no doubt, thought they did the last time and they probably thought it would please the fans.

If Hargreaves managerial career does end up being finished before it has really started, and the club have to look for a new manager, I just hope they either identify someone who has been successful elsewhere and go for him - e.g. Steve Burr, or ask people to apply, short-list them and then interview them.

In the meantime, I wonder if there is someone who could come in and work with Hargreaves. In the way that some young managers have old heads to support them e.g. Trollope/Lawrence, Clark/McDermott.

Dave Hockaday, is someone I have mentioned previously but I think someone like him could be the ideal candidate to support Hargreaves in the Conference.

SkyBlueGull wrote:Tomogull

Could you or others give me a bit of a background on the Webb era as I am completely in the dark about what went on - living so far away - it was before I became a converted TUFC fan

I know my father in law used to get angry whenever I asked - so much so that he could hardly speak with apoplexy.

Unfortunately now he is not well enough to speak at all now after his stroke.

It seems to be that the Webb era was a "dark age that cant be spoken of " for fear of bringing it back ( have we this season?) - but without wishing to bring back painful memories - I would genuinely like to know
TW

Sorry to hear about your father-in-law, SkyBlue. Hope he makes at least a partial recovery - many stroke victims make quite good recoveries nowadays. Yes - the Webb seasons do bring back painful memories and are best forgotten ! They were 30 years ago so the memory has dimmed a little ! Dave Webb was appointed manager in 1984/85 season and was at Plainmoor for two seasons - just before automatic promotion/relegation to the Conference was brought in. In his first season, we finished bottom with 41 points (probably about the same number of points we're going to end up with this season). At the end of that season, he got rid of many of the senior pros including John Impey and John Sims who were popular players and I think they were in charge for a while before Webb's appointment. I seem to remember rumours of a huge bust up between Webb and Sims at the start of the 85/86 season. He brought in lots of young inexperienced players, some of whom had been playing in the South Devon league the season before. The football was truly, truly abysmal and again we finished bottom of the league, this time with 37 points. The fans deserted the club in droves during that season - gates hovered around the 1000 mark and were often below 1000. I tell you - this season has been great compared with 85/86 !

Then there was Grandstand-gate. During Webb's tenure, there were two unexplained fires late at night in the Grandstand. Both fires were put out by the Fire Brigade before too much damage was done. But rumours were rife on lines of 'Using Insurance money to build a new stand'. Webb's 'services' were dispensed with at the end of the 85/86 season and Stuart Morgan was appointed manager. Morgan started with just a handful of players but managed to bring some good players to the club, including Paul Dobson and Jim McNichol. His season was the 'Bryn the Police Dog' season - finishing next to bottom doesn't sound a great achievement but we went from 37 points to 48 points. Personally, I thought Morgan was unfortunate in being dismissed at the end of that season but then along came larger-than-life Cyril Knowles and we beat Wrexham 6 - 1 in the first match of the 87/88 season. We had to pinch ourselves to make sure it was really happening !

I'm sure others on here (Stefano for example, has got a MUCH better memory than me !!) will remember the dark Webb days and will be able to fill in other details ..... or correct me where my memory is playing tricks ! However, in that awful 85/86 season, we at least managed to win EIGHT home games !!!! (only one away)

Webb was appointed in the Spring of 84, after Bruce Rioch resigned as a result of giving Colin Anderson a good kicking during a training ground bust-up. We had a decent team that - after a slow start to the season - was coming together. We had the likes of John Turner, back at the club, in goal, John Impey and the late David Carr in defence and John Sims had come in up front. We also had a young winger, signed from Bristol Rovers, called Keith Curle. The basis of a decent team was there.

One of the first things Webb did was to transfer-list that 5 as part of a cost-cutting exercise. Curle was sold for a pittance to Bristol City, who converted him into a central defender and he then went on to play for England. When my dad, at a fans forum, asked Webb why he let Curle go, Webb replied because he knew he could get a winger just as good for nothing at the end of the season. The player he signed was a slow, past-it reject from Bournemouth, called Steve Carter.

However, that final few months of the 83/84 season, Webb, with a massive turnaround in players, in a matter of weeks, with players like Derek Fowler, Mike Squire etc, did actually manage to get us to a final finish of 9th place.

However, it was the 84/85 season where his 'magic' started to work. He changed the badge, he changed the kit (a kit - for the players - that hadn't even arrived until just at the start of the season) and he signed players like Tony Fowler from Foxhole United, we had players on the sort of arrangement you see in the local leagues, who would play for us when they were also registered with other clubs on some sort of non-contract ad hoc basis, like Gary Pugh, who played for us when Thanet United didn't need him see http://soccerdatabase.eu/player/117354/

Things got so bad, that Webb himself even played - and scored the winning goal - and then sort of believed the hype and played himself up front in an FA Cup game away at Orient. Other local players like Andy Best came in. The one good signing was bringing Mark Loram back to the club.

There were odd players who I liked in that era - Mark Crowe was a reasonable player, as was keeper, David Fry and Steve Pugh gave it his all, as did Derek Fowler in the centre of defence, even though he had been a forward at STC. But the general quality was very poor, yet in 85 that team probably gave a better go at avoiding being bottom than the current lot.

Colin Anderson was sold, Derek Dawkins became a cult figure, while dross like Compton was brought to the club. In fact most of Webb's signings seemed to have a Bournemouth link. We had some abysmal forwards like Dean Mooney, Benny Laryea, Mario Walsh, even Eddie Kelly played for us at the age of about 72.

I do remember, however, Tony Currie's wonder-goal against Hereford, I think - I can still see it now, at the Babbacombe End, hit from miles out - shame there wasn't a camera to capture it.

But the fire, the change to Sims as manager and then Morgan and then finally in 86, Webb went and nobody mourned his departure. In fact there weren't many left to do so. Crowds had frequently slipped below the 1000 mark - it was just dire. It was rumoured that Webb left with a fairly signifcant pay-off and it took another year and the arrival of Cyril Knowles to finally recover from the depression and dismal years under Webb. The kit was blue and so was the mood for those two years and when I think back to them, I think of an empty Plainmoor, with terraces flattened (the terraces next to the mini-stands were flattened, and if my memory is correct it was so market stalls could be set up on them on non-football days or something bizarre) it being cold and grey with rain pouring down. I don't remember any sunny days under Dave Webb.

For me it all turned sour when Ling was dispensed with and nothing appears to have gone right since. Just before Ling was sacked the board shuffled positions and Knill was subsequently appointed. Whether Ling should have been allowed to return will divide many and we will never know what the outcome would have been, what we do know is the outcome after..........
Unfortunately Knill was retained for to long possibly because of the manner in which the Ling situation was handled leaving the chairwoman reluctant to dispense with Knill avoiding more instability and uncertainty, this decision always made it an up hill struggle for CH particularly as an inexperienced manager with the time afforded to him.
I think the board/club need to go through a period of rebuilding and stability, learn from mistakes and then lead on an attempt to regain league status (if of course relegation occurs). This will include complete rebuilding of the team which will take time.
The shame of it all is that two years ago Torquay were doing well, they were competing and had beat both Exeter and Plymouth and were probably the leading west country team........how things have changed. Hopefully Exeter will survive even if Torquay can't, the area often looked as a footballing wilderness needs as many league teams as possible, whatever your loyalty.

hector wrote: But the fire, the change to Sims as manager and then Morgan and then finally in 86, Webb went and nobody mourned his departure. In fact there weren't many left to do so. Crowds had frequently slipped below the 1000 mark - it was just dire. It was rumoured that Webb left with a fairly signifcant pay-off and it took another year and the arrival of Cyril Knowles to finally recover from the depression and dismal years under Webb. The kit was blue and so was the mood for those two years and when I think back to them, I think of an empty Plainmoor, with terraces flattened (the terraces next to the mini-stands were flattened, and if my memory is correct it was so market stalls could be set up on them on non-football days or something bizarre) it being cold and grey with rain pouring down. I don't remember any sunny days under Dave Webb.

That's pretty good, Hector - your description is just as bleak as it really was. Just one correction I think Impey, Sims and Turner took over the running of the team after Bruce Rioch's punch up with Anderson - i.e. before Webb's arrival. Webb left at the end of 85/86 and Stuart Morgan was appointed from 86/87 to salvage something from the wreckage of Torquay United AFC. I don't recall John Sims being manager whilst Webb was still at the club. I thought Sims departed after a bust-up with Webb but I might be remembering that wrongly. Oh - and I'm 90% sure there were two fires in the Stand ......... ??