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Well do not know where you got your stats from on Callum Ball, mine came from soccerbase, and if you want to be acurate Sunny, you will know his loan spell at Coventry came to and end, not because he lost his place, but because of an injury, Callum Ball's career stats.

Stats according to Soccerbase

As of 16 April 2013
Club Season League FA Cup League Cup Other[A] Total
Division Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals
Derby County 2009–10 Championship 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
2010–11 Championship 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0
2011–12 Championship 23 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 25 3
2012–13 Championship 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2013–14 Championship 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Derby County Total 29 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 31 3

Coventry City (loan) 2012–13 League One 15 0 1 1 3 1 2 1 21 3

Torquay United (loan) 2013–14 League Two 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Career totals 44 3 3 1 3 1 2 1 52 6

This seems to be the correct picture. It sounds like we have had more Father Dougal syndrome on here.

forevertufc wrote:Well do not know where you got your stats from on Callum Ball, mine came from soccerbase, and if you want to be acurate Sunny, you will know his loan spell at Coventry came to and end, not because he lost his place, but because of an injury

Not sure how (or what) you are trying to copy and paste from soccerbase but the salient facts are clear in the summary.

Last season - Coventry - 19 Jul, 12 to 19 Apr, 13 - Loan - Appearances 6 (9) Goals 0

The 9 in brackets is substitute appearances, the 6 being the number of league starts.
Whichever way you wish to spin it, 6 league starts over that length of time does not say he is good enough to be a regular starter.

Sunnysideup wrote: Not sure how (or what) you are trying to copy and paste from soccerbase but the salient facts are clear in the summary.

Last season - Coventry - 19 Jul, 12 to 19 Apr, 13 - Loan - Appearances 6 (9) Goals 0

The 9 in brackets is substitute appearances, the 6 being the number of league starts.
Whichever way you wish to spin it, 6 league starts over that length of time does not say he is good enough to be a regular starter.

He was injured, so could not play for a significant part of the season for Coventry in 2012/3. Also, in your previous post you refer to Coventry as a very struggling team in 2012/3. They got 54 points, with a 10 point deduction, in 2012/3 and finished mid-table, I wouldn't call that struggling, most teams would go down from League 1 after a ten point deduction. I really don't know what folk have got against Callum, he looks a decent player to me based on the games I have seen, and I think he will do a good job for us.

He's not had a run in any side, I'll grant you, but one goal every 9.5 games across three different divisions is a dreadful return for a striker.

Regardless of this, I don't think he does enough of anything or any one thing so extremely well as to allow him to become an established force at tier 2 level.

Think back to the few we've had who are now at that level: Wardy, Eunan, Smudger Smith. They all made it look very, very easy at the lower levels. They all stuck out as head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch. Bobby did the same but was surrounded by idiots. Ball doesn't do that. Have a look on the fora (plural of forum?) of the teams we've played this year and you'll not see anyone mention him by name in a positive context. No one is shitting themselves in their pre or post match threads about Ball. Equally, opposition managers and players commenting on the games are not mentioning him either. They did with the others I've mentioned.

Of course, there are exceptions, players who have looked bobbins for us but have gone on to great things. Carayol and Green are the obvious two. However, they had athleticism on their side, they are naturally fast, direct players. It was a lack of either application or talent which let them down while they were here. You can teach that. You can teach a man to dribble, cross, shoot, but you can't teach him to run faster or jump higher. Equally, you can inspire a man to work harder or train better or live right.

Of course he could be an a late bloomer, an ugly duckling, an Ian Wright, but they are extremely rare and the odds are stacked against him.

If he were at our level permanently, being judged by those standards, playing and training against those players and he was as he is, he might get away with it. He might be able to be of limited talent and physical ability, but train really hard, be a decent mentor to other kids and a nice bloke and just about get away with it. He isn't at our level, he's at Championship level and, I'm very much afraid that up against really quick, really tall and really talented players both in competition for his own place and in opposition defenders, he'll be found wanting a little bit of something.

Yes, Knill is persevering with him and that is to the credit of them both, but given that we are now even more penniless than we were a week ago, I do wonder if that might be because keeping him is the lesser of two weevils?

Matt.

Can't say fairer than that Matt. An extremely accurate assessment of the man IMO.

Although I like Callum and want him to succeed in the side I think that matt assessment is the best so far. I've talked to him and he's a nice guy so lets hope he can throw in some goals if knill does decide to carry on with him

gullintwoplaces wrote:He was injured, so could not play for a significant part of the season for Coventry in 2012/3. Also, in your previous post you refer to Coventry as a very struggling team in 2012/3. They got 54 points, with a 10 point deduction, in 2012/3 and finished mid-table, I wouldn't call that struggling

At the time of Ball's first injury (mid november) you will find that Coventry had played 17 league games for the return of 17 points (that doesnt include the 10 point penatly either).
If you dont consider 1 point a game to be struggling then I hate to think what does constitute a struggle.
Ball made 4 starts and 7 sub appearance in that period so I would suggest again that indicates that he couldnt cement a starting berth in a team that was struggling.

Sunnysideup wrote: At the time of Ball's first injury (mid november) you will find that Coventry had played 17 league games for the return of 17 points (that doesnt include the 10 point penatly either).
If you dont consider 1 point a game to be struggling then I hate to think what does constitute a struggle.
Ball made 4 starts and 7 sub appearance in that period so I would suggest again that indicates that he couldnt cement a starting berth in a team that was struggling.

I think you are being extremely selective. To turn your argument around, most of his appearances were in the period up to his first injury. He was therefore either in the starting lineup or on the bench of a club with a very large squad in League 1, "struggling" if you want to call it that, but actually drawing lots of games. If he can get in their squad for most of the games that he was fit for then I guess that Coventry rated him! I think all this argument is just a bit daft, what matters is how he plays NOW for the Gulls, not last year. He is 21 next week, and is still developing. I have seen enough to say that I welcome his loan extension.

We can all play silly b*ggers with stats to prove that one player is better than another, but old stats prove not a lot.

Sunnysideup wrote: Not sure how (or what) you are trying to copy and paste from soccerbase but the salient facts are clear in the summary.

Last season - Coventry - 19 Jul, 12 to 19 Apr, 13 - Loan - Appearances 6 (9) Goals 0

The 9 in brackets is substitute appearances, the 6 being the number of league starts.
Whichever way you wish to spin it, 6 league starts over that length of time does not say he is good enough to be a regular starter.

Not going to turn this into a protracted argument for the sake of the readers, however I do feel the need to respond. For a start to say Not sure how (or what) you are trying to copy and paste from soccerbase is pretty ridiculous even the professor of dumb from the university of dumb could figure out what I did was copy and paste Callum Ball’s Actual career stats as per soccer base, not made up or pretend.

You accuse me of twisting stats to suit my argument, but by refusing to acknowledge accept that Callum Ball actually scored 3 senior championship goals for Derby and the same refusing to acknowledge he scored 3 cup goals for Coventry, also by trying argue that an appearance as a substitute is some how not a valid appearance ( that’s ok, if York bring on an 89th min sub and he scores, the ref will disallow the goal because the player didn’t start the game it’s not a valid appearance so the goal can’t stand) You are 100% guilty of doing the self same thing, tad hypocritical if you ask me.

Also in the spirit of accuracy Ball's 23 game run in the Derby side was ended due to injury, as you clearly think I am making things up, here is a video of the goal Callum ball scored against Arsenal in a Coventry shirt argue your way out of that, oh of course I probably edited the video, and for those of you that doubt Ball, and that’s fair enough your entitled do so, don’t look just at the finish, look at where he starts his run from, that is a goal scored by an established player.

The fact that Ball scored a goal against Arsenal has absolutely no relevance to how he is playing for Torquay.
For starters he cannot head the ball at all and is two yards slower of the mark than Rene Howe. he is nowhere near good enough to be a championship player.

brucie wrote:The fact that Ball scored a goal against Arsenal has absolutely no relevance to how he is playing for Torquay.
For starters he cannot head the ball at all and is two yards slower of the mark than Rene Howe. he is nowhere near good enough to be a championship player.

It's difficult to be sure with footballers though Terry. When a young loan player Ashley Barnes had half a dozen games for us and was getting a slating on the various fans forums I posted that I could see something there and thought he would be playing Championship level before very long. I did of course get slated for that, but Barnes has been playing Championship level for 3 seasons now. He wasn't that brilliant with us (but mind you he made his debut the same day as Mo - remember him? :Oops: ), but there was something there. I think that Callum Ball has that 'something'. I believe he will play at Championship level in the future, but before that I would like to see him launch his career forward by starting to put it together for us.

I know that would make Terry / Brucie, Hector, Wivel, and myself very happy .... or would that really be too much to ask!

ferrarilover wrote:He's not had a run in any side, I'll grant you, but one goal every 9.5 games across three different divisions is a dreadful return for a striker.

Regardless of this, I don't think he does enough of anything or any one thing so extremely well as to allow him to become an established force at tier 2 level.

Think back to the few we've had who are now at that level: Wardy, Eunan, Smudger Smith. They all made it look very, very easy at the lower levels. They all stuck out as head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch. Bobby did the same but was surrounded by idiots. Ball doesn't do that. Have a look on the fora (plural of forum?) of the teams we've played this year and you'll not see anyone mention him by name in a positive context. No one is shitting themselves in their pre or post match threads about Ball. Equally, opposition managers and players commenting on the games are not mentioning him either. They did with the others I've mentioned.

Of course, there are exceptions, players who have looked bobbins for us but have gone on to great things. Carayol and Green are the obvious two. However, they had athleticism on their side, they are naturally fast, direct players. It was a lack of either application or talent which let them down while they were here. You can teach that. You can teach a man to dribble, cross, shoot, but you can't teach him to run faster or jump higher. Equally, you can inspire a man to work harder or train better or live right.

Of course he could be an a late bloomer, an ugly duckling, an Ian Wright, but they are extremely rare and the odds are stacked against him.

If he were at our level permanently, being judged by those standards, playing and training against those players and he was as he is, he might get away with it. He might be able to be of limited talent and physical ability, but train really hard, be a decent mentor to other kids and a nice bloke and just about get away with it. He isn't at our level, he's at Championship level and, I'm very much afraid that up against really quick, really tall and really talented players both in competition for his own place and in opposition defenders, he'll be found wanting a little bit of something.

Yes, Knill is persevering with him and that is to the credit of them both, but given that we are now even more penniless than we were a week ago, I do wonder if that might be because keeping him is the lesser of two weevils?

Matt.

Ah. I see your not just a scholar but a wit too Matt, the old ones are the best. and arty too.

Not sure if anyone's posted yet, but any FIFA players, am I right in thinking Ball is our highest rated player? Only fair, absolute quality oozing from that young man, I'd break the transfer record for him

sam_ wrote:Not sure if anyone's posted yet, but any FIFA players, am I right in thinking Ball is our highest rated player? Only fair, absolute quality oozing from that young man, I'd break the transfer record for him

Ball is only a 61 rating, Pearce is our highest EVER fifa rating at 67! (A low Championship quality if you are not aware of ratings)