Where did it all go wrong.....

[Burnhamgull]

Good post CP Gull, I too rarely post much on this forum as I have lost enthusiasm, including attending matches. I agree with pretty much all you have written.
I tend to think that the earlier years FA Cup exit against Crawley was a crucial tipping point. I don't think I have seen queues to enter the ground as long as they were for quite some time especially as it was a bitterly cold day . The atmosphere at the Christmas home game against Swindon when we only had 3 stands was fantastic.

Much has been mentioned about the Youth system. I have been coaching for the last 5 years, firstly at Galmpton U10 , U11 and now at Marldon U10. During my spell at Galmpton where my son played I only ever saw one(1) visit from a TUFC youth coach. Considering at that time Galmpton were in the top 2 for all that Pioneer league season. During the game I spoke with the TUFC coach who was not really watching(the game) to enquire what his role was and what he was looking for in a player at that age, he couldn't really answer my question which I found very surprising. At the end of that game he came to ask if he could talk to one of our players and his father about if he would like to train and play for TUFC. The boy said no straight away. His father asked the coach what would happen if he did sign for TUFC and the coach said that he would not be able to continue with Galmpton whether training or playing. He would have to travel here there and everywhere and no game time is promised. Father said no wonder he doesn't want to play!! During those 2 seasons I watched some very talented lads and speaking with all the other coaches it was normal for lads to turn down TUFC.
Now with Marldon U10 I have never seen a TUFC coach at any match. I have seen Colin Lee a couple of times at training looking at some of the older lads for the Chelsea/S, Dartmoor College thing. Talking with many of the other teams coaches if TUFC come knocking then no one is interested, if Exeter come knocking then that's a different situation. I have seen 2 local boys at u10 level leave there teams and move to Exeter with there coaches blessing.
I feel in the main that local clubs are developing young lads better than what TUFC youth system can. Exeter is far superior and we all know it.

I will leave you all with this thought that just about sums TUFC up, i spoke to one of the directors a couple of years ago and enquired if he would be attending the next home game, he said i doubt it, iam really a rugby man and would prefer to watch that instead of going to TUFC!!!

Sadly, this shows the attitude and feeling towards Torquay United FC in the local area. Kids want to be associated with success and right now, we're seen as nothing more than a joke club. It's getting like the 80's when everybody saw us as the stereotypical bottom of the league club who couldn't play football if our lives depended on it. Cyril Knowles (RIP) changed that philosophy for a while.

When a coach turns up to watch games and appears to have no idea what he's looking for, you have to ask why do they even bother with a youth setup?

Exeter have been churning out decent youngsters for some time whereas we've toyed with the idea.

Yet another example of why the club will eventually go the same way as Stockport County, Hereford and Darlington.

There's a massive feeling of disillusionment on this forum currently and it's sad to see so many fans giving up but is it any wonder when the lack of ambition from the top is so apparent. The board might get a nasty shock in the summer when they lose another 50+ ST holders.

[AustrianAndyGull]

When you say that kids aren't interested Burnham are you referring to kids coming to watch TUFC or kids refusing to join or to look elsewhere for their footballing development?

If it's kids not coming to Plainmoor to watch games then i totally agree and to a certain extent i have some sympathy with the club on this. When i was at secondary school myself and loads of school pals would often head on down to Belle Vue, Doncaster to watch the Rovers, have a laugh and a kick about beforehand. This was even though some of them supported other clubs and went with their parents a lot (Sheff Wed / Barnsley) mainly. Night games were especially fun, all piling on the bus from near Askern on the south / north yorks border to Donny and then walking the rest of the way past the racecourse and onto Belle Vue. I'm only talking maybe 20 years back.

Even so, in those days there was no internet, no Sky Sports and not many other distractions. If you wanted a football fix you either watched MOTD and Goals on Sunday, bought a copy of Match or Shoot or actually went to a game.

Today kids have football on tap whether it is footage and info on the internet or 24/7 on TV, they have a million and other things to do with their mates OTHER than go to Plainmoor and watch low quality football. Times have changed and it is twice as hard now to get the younger ones in, especially if they don't already have some connection with the club ie their parents are TUFC fans and what have you.

I just don't think the interest is there anymore for young ones and teens and i know the club have gone around schools trying to promote themselves and give out free tickets (i think - correct me if i'm wrong) and also done numerous kids ticket deals for home games which the club have to be commended for. I don't really see what else the club can do on that score. For me they have a HUGE problem holding onto current fans more than they do attracting new ones and it is this i feel that this is where the primary focus should be in future months and years.

TUFC, like many lower league and indeed Championship clubs have become victims of changing times and i feel the only semblance of a chance they have at generating new interest with the young 'uns is through social media now and interactive web stuff. As Bobby pointed out in another thread which was bang on, the lack of social media presence at TUFC is poor.

Listen, i'm not fussed because like njgull, i'd generally speaking rather voluntarily offer myself for unnecessary medical trials involving major invasive surgery than view photos of peoples take aways on facebook or see that some random nobody in Chipping Camden has 806 followers purely based on the premise that he once claimed he had seen an image of Elvis in a duckpond and posted it on twitter.

BUT most people aren't like me thank shit. Most people can't live without a device superglued to their hands or ears or even face! Most young ones can't function without spending half their life on social media so i guess in that respect Bobby has a superb point. Torquay simply need to bombard the social media world with incessant 'stuff'. It is the ONLY way of recruiting new fans in 2015 and beyond. Maybe TUFC don't realise how important it is or perhaps through no fault of their own they haven;t anybody with the time or expertise to nail this sucker down once and for all. I don't know either way but it needs to be done regardless like Bobby says.

If you are referring kids not wanting to come to TUFC to play football then i find that odd. Listen, i know nothing about youth set ups or anything but i do know that Torquay United are a well known club despite what some say and most youngsters with an opportunity to go and play for them and be involved in the set up would jump at the chance i'm sure. I'm talking the first rung on the ladder here and not some kid who has been at Plainmoor a while before finding out that it's better at Exeter or Plymouth (if indeed it is - i've no idea). I can't believe that a kid offered trials or to join the youth set up at Torquay for the first time would say piss off because you're a joke club - i'm waiting for the Greeks to come and get me?

Anyway.

I think TUFC went wrong the most when i forked out £65 on a replica shirt for myself and little one and then a few months later brought out a new one whilst Sports Direct were knocking the old ones out at £7.99. An apology would have been nice. Failing that - some prior communication to save others wasting cash? Surely they knew or did they conveniently 'forget' to tell fans about this? Apologising for things they have done wrong and communication perhaps not TUFC 's strong points. If Bobby has his way then we can add social media to that list too.

[ethantufcbaker]

Andy i have to agree with you talking about teenagers (coming from someone who is one). it was only by chance that i started supporting torquay. my uncle had a spare ticket to a 2-0 against lincoln. if it wernt for that then i would only watch the premier league. also my dad his dad and son now watch after my dad told them to go. they were treated to a cracker 1-0 over barnet. the problem is most people wouldnt want to watch torquay especially now they are in the conference.

[Burnhamgull]

A little bit of both Andy....

I mean if a kid gets a trial with TUFC, can you imagine the stick his mates would give him?

Kid 1: "I've got a trial with Torquay"
Kid 2: "So what, they're shit!"

The main point of my post was aimed at the fact that kids don't want to come and watch TUFC anymore and that's down to a number of reasons, two of which are the advent of SKY and also the fact we're so poor currently. Why would you come and watch Torquay on a cold day in December when you could stay at home and watch any one of 6-7 premier league games at home?

I'm bringing my kids down on Sunday for a "treat".........poor sods. I usually stand on the popside but for one game only I'll pay for the luxury of sitting in the blustery cold family stand. Happy Days!

Ironically, my youngest who is five is Torquay mad. Everything has to be "yellow for Torquay"......she loves telling me she hates Exeter and always wants to know if she can come..........

Then I take her and destroy her dreams in one afternoon. The 10 year old has already learned that there is more to life.....

[taxilady]

My seven year old granddaughter loves coming to matches. She says it's so much better than watching footie on TV..you don't get to talk to the goalkeeper at your first ever live match very often I expect ! I thought she 'd stop wanting to come when it got more wintry, but so far it's been ok. She doesn't come to all the games, but always wants to know the results. I'm actually not sure which is the biggest attraction : waving to Ricey, watching the match, or eating the hot-dog...

[AustrianAndyGull]

A little bit of both Andy....

I mean if a kid gets a trial with TUFC, can you imagine the stick his mates would give him?

Kid 1: "I've got a trial with Torquay"
Kid 2: "So what, they're sh*t!"

The main point of my post was aimed at the fact that kids don't want to come and watch TUFC anymore and that's down to a number of reasons, two of which are the advent of SKY and also the fact we're so poor currently. Why would you come and watch Torquay on a cold day in December when you could stay at home and watch any one of 6-7 premier league games at home?

I'm bringing my kids down on Sunday for a "treat".........poor sods. I usually stand on the popside but for one game only I'll pay for the luxury of sitting in the blustery cold family stand. Happy Days!

Ironically, my youngest who is five is Torquay mad. Everything has to be "yellow for Torquay"......she loves telling me she hates Exeter and always wants to know if she can come..........

Then I take her and destroy her dreams in one afternoon. The 10 year old has already learned that there is more to life.....

Excellent post Burnham (wish i knew your real name, not for creepiness but just because i hate referring to people as places , i reckon you are a Paul or a Steve.).

I had to laugh at the bit about bringing your kids to the footy for a treat! Raised a few smiles with me as i've had the same problem with my little un. I took my 5 year old to the York home game with Mansfield for her first game and to her credit she sat through it all although their were plenty of sweets and chocolates on the menu plus Yorkie the Lion was very accommodating. "Daddy i'm bored..........." she would say.

"Well so am **** i!!" I'd say having not seen a York home win in all comps for 15 games.


Obviously i didn't say that, i wouldn't swear at children. I have some intelligence (so i'm told).

Then i took her to the home game v Accrington on Boxing Day which was marginally better and for the first 30 she was asking lots of questions and ok until the temperature dropped and the game petered out. "Can we go home yet daddy?" i got a million times. The ref also added 7 minutes of injury time the ****!!! Thank God i brought the technology, the tablet and she was ok for a while longer. She did get involved a bit when York defender Brad Halliday got harshly sent off for a 'lunge' on ex Gull tosser Tom Aldred when she began chanting CHEAT CHEAT CHEAT CHEAT!! along with the rest of the baying Minstermen though.

After the game i had a rant at a chav scally who was clearly drunk and trying to get himself and his bike through the oncoming hordes of Minstermen and over the railway footbridge next to Scarborough Terrace at Bootham Crescent. He was chuntering about how he had rights and was entitled to take his bicycle over the footbridge just like anyone else. I had a look round to see if my little one was in earshot and told him to get a life the sad ****.

Says me having just spent my saturday afternoon at a York game with a 5 year old. Man i'm living la vida babay!!

It is all about perseverance though with young ones. They aren't going to enjoy it. I'm 38 and don't **** enjoy it! They've got no chance but like anything in life if you go often enough and make it a habit then eventually habits become hard to break.

Take me, i can't stop coming on here posting shite.

Take them to Plainmoor. Keep taking them, keep taking them and getting them involved and eventually it becomes 'something you just do' and you are away. The football is guaranteed to be shit whether it's York or Torquay so you have to have other things up your sleeve to keep them interested.

Don't give in and keep taking the little buggers.

I'd also like to mention that when i came down for the home game with Newport last season i was sat in the bench and it was bloody freezing and this bloke had a little lad with him a few rows in front of me who was laid down playing with a toy for the best part of the second half. I felt sad for him as a parent (not his parent unless i've had a drunken affair in the torbay area a few years back ) but as a dad myself i felt sorry for the kid.

Then i thought about it more and realized that the dad had done the right thing. Kids can't always have what they want. Take them to TUFC games every week and they are gonna be bored off their tits. Standard. Just like when you start smoking you think it's shit. I smoked for 3 months before somebody told me you had to inhale. I was just blowing it back out again!! No wonder i thought it was shit!!

Keep taking them and it becomes second nature.

What is there is that is more than football?

If you have a passion then surely you want to pass that on to your children?

When they are older they can make their own decisions. If these 'decisions' involve asking me to take her to see a Premier League club then THAT is when i get on the blower to Supernanny. Some things simply have to be stamped out.

[Burnhamgull]

Spooky Andy......very spooky.......I am indeed a Paul!

Yea I remember the first time I took the 10 year old.......I spent more time at the food hut and outside the toilets (no jokes please) than I did watching the game. I actually missed both of Grimsby's goals in a 0-2 defeat.

I know how to spoil my girls.......Torquay scarves, programmes and days out at Mecca have still not fully endeared them to the Yellow Army.....although I think the 5 year old is still disillusioned at the moment and thinks they're great.....soon change that.

One thing I have to remember is that watching the game from the Family stand is a different experience to watching it on the Popside.........my language has to be checked for starters.....then there's the weirdness of being sat down for most of the game.........I miss Boots at half time BUT if I walk to the far end, I can go into the bar at the back of the stand for a drink.....the chances of getting served are actually greater so that's a result!

[tomogull]

Excellent thread and very good posting, CP gull. Also lots of good postings, including AustrianAndy's. Whether you agree with Andy or not, his posts always provoke discussions. His presence has been missed so it's good to know he's still lurking out there !

Where did it all go wrong? I think things began to slide when Alex Rowe stepped down from being chairman. As we all know, Alex led the consortium which included Paul Bristow that rescued the club from the shambles that Roberts had taken us into. When Alex stepped down, Simon Baker took over. He is Torquay United through and through but he was not suited for the chairman's post in my view. This was demonstrated by the amateurish way Martin Ling was informed of his dismissal. It was handed over to Thea Bristow to contact Ling. Like a hot potato, the chairman's job was then passed to Thea. Now, Thea is a lovely lady and what she and Paul have done for the club can never be overstated, but I bet even she does not think that being chairman is really her 'thing'. Appointing Alan Knill without drawing up a shortlist was also a mistake, although at the time I don't think too many fans disagreed with the decision. It then appears that Knill was given almost a free hand to sign players on generous two-year contracts and we ended up with the likes of Tonge, Harding and Hawley. This has crippled the club financially, or at least severely hampered Hargreaves options when bringing in new players.

Turning to the youth scouting mentioned by ForeverDave, my grandson has played for a Pioneer League team for several seasons. The season before last, there was a prolific scorer in his team who clearly had potential. Where is he now? He's with the Plymouth Youth set-up. At the end of each season, there is a trophy presentation which takes place at a hotel in Brixham. Two years ago, my grandson said there were representatives there from Exeter and Plymouth, but nobody from Torquay Utd. I don't know if it was the same last year as he didn't go. Also, he may not have got his facts right so if he didn't, maybe someone connected with a Pioneer League side can correct me.

Torquay has never been a club that has gone out of its way to encourage youngsters to attend matches. Even going back to the days when my two lads were youngsters (they're now well into their thirties, bless 'em !), there was no incentives. Whilst Exeter introduced their Kids for a Quid initiative, there was nothing like it at Plainmoor. I don't think the schoolkids are offered a section of the Family Stand any more, are they? Frank Prince did a lot of good work with schools and players such as Lee Mansell, Kevin Nicholson and Matt Hockley often visited schools and the Hospital, but I haven't heard of any such visits during the last couple of seasons. The kids half-time games are a good idea. In fact, last season they were the main attraction on many Saturdays. I was interested to read Andy's comments about what happens at York. Our Board members could learn a lot from what happens at other clubs.

Andy and Southampton Gull mention the changing football scene during the past decade or so, 'thanks' to Sky Sports. They are right. You can watch Premier League football on three or four nights each week nowadays and this has spawned a generation of sofapporters to the detriment of clubs outside the Premiership.

Several comparisons have been made with Exeter but it's not all rosy up the road. They have been in and out of administration and had to seek a loan from the FA to pay their players during the summer. Their ground is great ....... on two sides ! Their 'old' grandstand is much worse than our pre-Bristow's Bench stand and their so-called away end must surely be the worst in the league.

My worries are that Alex Rowe and Tony Boyce's two sons resigned from the Board 'to make way for new blood'. Three months later, where is this new blood? And now Ian Hayman has stood down. I believe Ian did a great job wrestling with the club's finances to ensure that we remained solvent. Who on the Board has the expertise to take on this role now that Ian has gone? I worry that there is virtually no contact between the Board and the fans. We receive virtually no information about decisions made by the Board. I feel that Board members should be more pro-active but as the number of members gets fewer and fewer, there must be more pressure on those still in post. I worry that we will become another Wrexham or Lincoln - a club that thinks it should be in the Football League but in reality is rooted in the Conference.

But let's finish on a positive note. Our fans must be amongst the most loyal in the land. Many Conference sides can only dream of having gates of 2000+ regularly each week. I greatly admire you lads in your teens and twenties who give such great support when often the football we see is mediocre at best, especially last season. When I was about your age, we lads used to cram into the old Cowshed (pre-Family Stand) and Plainmoor used to rock to the strains of 'We all Live in a Yellow Submarine'. This was at the time towards the end of Eric Webber's time as manager and Frank O=Farrell's great sides. Gates regularly exceeded 7000. I hope and believe Chris Hargreaves will build and strengthen his team season by season. I'm not expecting promotion this season, or even next. But as long as Chris can improve our league position season by season, we have to be patient and support him and the team. I think he can become as good a manager as Paul Tisdale and will lead us back into Div 2 ...... even in my lifetime !!!!

Finally, Happy New Year to all Forum members. The Forum is a great vehicle for information, exchanging views, agreeing, disagreeing, having a good laugh at times. But we're all in the same Yellow Submarine and the Torquay United 'bug' won't let us go. Thanks to the adminstrators for keeping the Forum ticking over.

Wow - I've achieved my New Year's resolution ! A post as long as Andy's !!!!!

[tomogull]

........ and another thing ! The comment " a small seaside town in a far flung outpost of the country," Just like Bournemouth, eh? Bournemouth, who we used to play against regularly just a few seasons ago and are currently top of the Championship. Thereby lies a clue to our different fortunes. Bournemouth is now a vibrant and popular resort. Torbay has stagnated into a pale shadow of what it used to be, simply because there has been no real leadership in the Borough. I suspect the same is true for both football clubs .........

[Trojan 67]

It started to go wrong when the exodus to Bournemouth&Boscombe Athletic started. Some might even say it was when Robin was sold to Bristol Rovers.

[Rjc70]

When Ling's budget after selling Olejnik, O'Kane et al was not sufficient to 'replace' with something that would have us again in the play-off's to League 1, as previously under his stewardship. Ling's subsequent depressive illness. Knill starting the following season as our Manager, because people felt he had somehow saved us. From Shaun Taylor as hapless temporary manager, yes. But a poor record, nonetheless.

[Neal]

Good post Andy and others on this thread. But I disagree, there is Kudos for kids to be chosen to play for TUFC. My son was chosen years ago when they went around the schools. He went to St Josephs in Newton and they chose 2 from the school to partake in evening sessions with all the other kids. He loved it and so did all the rest. He wasn't good enough to get a second year but he loved every minute of it. There was no piss taking from mates at all, in fact there was genuine respect. I think we underestimate young kids myself, yes they are social media savvy and competitive. Its some parents, who don't introduce their kids to new things, not the kids!

In my sport there are several young kids much much better than me, and mine is a bloody hard sport, its frightening how good they are, and Ive persevered all these years and these young whipper snappers can outperform me easily. Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! But good on em!!

[supergulls]

It all went wrong the day we decided to part with Martin Ling.

[Rjc70]

It all went wrong the day we decided to part with Martin Ling.

[PlainmoorRoar]

It all went wrong the day we decided to part with Martin Ling.

an early but strong contender for stupid post of the year award!