Torquay United Fans Forum

300k off the wage bill may come sooner than at first thought.

On the O/S it clearly states 'GULLS PLAYER JANUARY SALE'!!

If only...........................

forevertufc wrote: Incorrect in my view. Nothing wrong in delivering an honest assessment as to how the game has gone, no manager should come out and say half my players aren't good enough and most will be gone in the summer with 15 games still to play, end of. A skilful manager keeps that to himself.

No wonder the players don't respect CH and play like they want to be somewhere else, what do we or the manager expect when he says things like that in public, but hey, he's told us fans as far as this seasons concerned it's over, done and finished, so who can blame any fan for not bothering now, lets hope we do stay in the Trophy now.

To be fair to CH, he did say before the Braintree defeat that the club could push for the play offs. Just a shame that after the Braintree defeat all the players suddenly became 'rubbish' , a 'disgraceful' referee cost them in another game and then Ajala was solely 'to blame' for the draw against Alfreton!

He says a different thing every week depending on how it's gone on the pitch. What's the betting Hemel Hempstead get knocked for 6 and he comes out with 'this team are winners'? Somehow i prefer 'it felt like a win'.

What i see is man struggling with his new job and i'm sure everyone can understand this , what i also see is a man who i don't feel is being true to himself. I don't feel he is willing to take 100% of the flak for bad results and performances always seeking an excusable soundbite with the ultimate goal of self preservation. Most managers do adopt this approach to be fair but nobody ever believes the bullshit unless they are a bit simple. Yes you can say the players have let him down and this and that but he is the gaffer and he is where the buck stops.

The silly thing is, he can blame who he wants but if things go totally tits up he'll still get the chop regardless. Is it not better to foster a positive all in it together approach like the board should have done soon after relegation but failed to do so? Like Dave says, fans will still turn up if they feel he and the players are at least putting it all in to move forwards. As it is now i'm guessing it all feels like they have thrown in the towel and and if you can still part with the money to watch the 2nd most expensive team in the conference go through the motions then it is YOU who will be the ones most satisfied when Torquay pull through this mess and regain their league status.

I say when but at the moment it's probably an if, and a big one at that.

I'll leave the decision making to you lot. Starting with joining the trust and beginning to take some control back off the totally inept board. Maybe in the long term also being in a position to helping give Thea a break both personally and financially because she must be feeling the strain too. She of all people deserves some support for once, she has been totally failed by those around her and TUFC need another short term option if things get desperate to keep the club afloat and to give some help to Thea.

Every player needs ambition to be the best they can be.

Play lads who WANT to play rather than players who HAVE to play.

The high earners that don't give a shit and are causing problems in the dressing room should basically have been told to sod off on matchdays and go and help sell programmes or whatever. They shouldn't be anywhere near the first team. CH at some point has to bring in people on peanuts so he may as well have started months and months ago instead of relying on players who know they are leaving come May.

Ostracising the big earners and giving their place in the team to hungry youth or whatever sends out a clear message and young players can finally get an opportunity. That's if there are any young players left at the club! How could the club have done any worse than they are already by dumping the ones causing all the trouble and tossing it off?

Why wait until the end of the season to clear the decks when the process could have already started?

Maybe it's a convenient excuse for CH for more bad management and one which will buy him time at least until the end of next season when it becomes obvious that nothing has changed.

Getting these players off the books will save money and give CH a tiny bit of cash for next season hopefully. He has brought some decent players to the club this season but that's only half the job, getting them to perform is the other. Next season he will have to do both to astounding effect. Confident?

Oh and i've just noticed Stretford Gull has made a post on the Altrincham thread as i was composing my post, so that's 3 people. That's 9988 posts, 12 to go!

RussianGull wrote: You're not wrong there.

Actually he IS wrong.

At no time have a said that i 'don't give a shit about Torquay United'. In fact outsiders viewing this forum may think i care more about them than a fair few of it's fans given the total lack of activity on here. This site is a vehicle for many fans to post all about the club they love and whilst the amount of contribution by each individual on here has no bearing on how much support they give the club in real terms, it does make you think sometimes. What is the point of a TUFC fans forum when most fans that use it aren't motivated enough to post? It's your club not mine so get typing!

I feel sorry for Olivier Gueguen because if he ever thought about coming on and seeing how welcoming fans were to have him here then he'd get a shock.

The TUST Lottery thread went down a treat too. I'm sure many fans are going to get involved without posting about it but it's just the lack of appreciation, thanks and general manners for others who are posting about things beneficial to TUFC and trying to make a difference and it is me who doesn't give a shit apparently.

Dave posted his excellent Altrincham match preview 2 days ago and with a match in a matter of hours Torquay United have a match yet only two people seemingly are remotely interested enough to want to share their views on the match. If fans aren't fussed about giving their opinions on things then that's fine - not everything has to be played out on an internet forum but don't criticise those who wish to make the effort otherwise there won't be a forum for you to read. (obviously it is perfectly acceptable for me to criticise those who DON'T wish to make the effort though ).

So i do give a shit about Torquay United which is why i am trying to encourage fans to create things for themselves like the crowdfunding thing Plainmoor Roar has done. The club needs everyone pulling together and whilst i am not a part of that anymore it doesn't mean i still don't wish to help and still find it hard to flush several years of obsessive support and great memories down the swanny. I intend to pledge my cash to the crowdfunding thing or are non Torquay fans not allowed? :rules:

It would be nice to get to a 10,000 posts and i'm sure i will. I'm indifferent to whether people will read them or even care. It's just nice to get involved now and again and have an opinion. Louis, Dave and Scott make this possible for all with hard work so maybe a bit more interaction and involvement would benefit everyone.

Gullscorer wrote:Andy, an excellent summary (if that's the right word.. :~D ) of events over the past two or three seasons, except for one thing: your assessment of CH and his abilities as manager is absolute bollocks..!!

CH has let nobody down. He has been manager for just a year in his first managerial post and it's far too soon to judge him as a failure. He's currently on course to emulate Paul Buckle's record of an FA Trophy final in his first season and promotion via the play-offs in his second, and on a fraction of the budget of any of his predecessors, one could even say a zero budget.

And there are still sixteen league games to be played this season, so if the lads reproduce their early season form it's still possible to make the play-offs, perhaps even making it a double, of promotion and the FA Trophy this season. If that seems overly optimistic, I need only point out that sort of scenario has been achieved before. It's certainly not impossible to recover from our present league position. CH has worked wonders to bring in the players he has, young players with potential who can only get better, on (I remind you again) a zero budget.

Yes of course CH has made a few mistakes in his first year (what manager hasn't?), but to say he has let us down is a nonsense. Even if we finish the season mid-table, it cannot be said that he has been a failure, given the circumstances and the restraints within which he has had to work. I should be quite happy with mid-table this season, with the promise of better to come next time. Obviously, anything more would be a welcome bonus, but as things stand now, we should fully support CH and the team all the way.

They deserve nothing less..

I do agree Mick that CH has had to work under tremendously difficult circumstances but ultimately he took the job on with the remit of keeping Torquay in the league which he failed to do. Subsequently i believe he said that he could get Torquay back up which at the first attempt at least doesn't appear to be the case.

It all depends whether you are a person who takes everything into account and can have sympathy with Chris for the job he his trying to do with hands tied or whether you are in the black and white camp and take things at face value. Whether you are a person who accepted relegation when he took over and accepted mid table in the conference or whether you are a person who thought that despite the obvious constraints of the job that he could and should have done a lot better. I don't think either opinion is wrong to be honest.

I think a lot of those fans who travelled away a lot in the last few months of the season would feel that CH had let them down but on the flipside there may be some who probably expected abject performances regardless so again, this is subjective.

I do think next season is the time to judge CH without anybody being able to put up a stink about it but like Knill, i feel that lots of fans feel that they HAVE to support him under sufferance because there is no other option. If he gets it wrong next season then that consigns Torquay into non league for a very long time but if he gets it right then he proves a lot of people wrong.

I have said in many posts that what do people expect this season?

My disappointment with CH is due to what he offered last season not this. I have no idea whether you as fans expected to be in the play offs or to get promotion. I had an expectation of just outside the play offs with a slim chance of reaching them which is where you are now so Chris has done a decent enough job this time around but he has had some better players than a lot of conference teams, better facilities than some other conference teams and let's not forget - it is the conference so it is theoretically easier to get more wins than in league 2.

Like you said Mick, just fully get behind them and see where it takes you.

Neal wrote:"No manager ever, be it football or business, is going to get all their hires right. But I would go as far as to say Knill got them almost all wrong. That is unforgivable in any industry, the fact that Hawley, Tongue, Benyon etc had some pedigree but were terrible for us is Knills fault, whether it was because of the players or the way he managed them is up for debate, but who is to blame isn't."

Exactly my point!! Knill was paid to get these right, HE DIDNT, AND...... we still have the legacy today which is affecting the current squad. That's the point that many just cannot grasp!

Someone mentioned a director of football. Well the last one we had most of you moaned about! And, ok we can get one, but I would think that they would want paying, so that's 2 more players off the squad then.

It all sounds so easy doesn't it, just do x and it will be ok, but everything costs money!!!! Come on Thea put your hand in your pocket again because some of us fans know how to do it better. CH said in the Herald this week that if the truth was known how much she puts in we would be shocked, I believe that. AND without her we would probably not exist at all by now or be part time.

I grasp you Neal, although not physically obviously - that would be a scene. :Oops: But yeah, i totally understand where you are coming from re: Knill and how he failed.

I think Knill failed all ends up not just because of the calibre of player he signed but also because he also continued to include some of Ling's leftovers with alarming regularity, even when they were not performing week after week after week.

This was either because Knill had managed them appallingly or because they were quite simply not good enough and even when it was quite clear they weren't good enough or have never produced the goods they still got game time.

Players that were managed appallingly like Mansell who seems to have a new lease of life at Brizzle, a life sucked from him by the monotonous drabness that is AK Management. Nico the same, possibly his worst season last and now enjoying life away from the poison that is TUFC at Kiddy. The West Midlands side being 4 points clear of Torquay with a game in hand.

Damon Lathrope never got a look in under Knill and was farmed out to Hereford despite it becoming increasingly clear that he was urgently required in the middle of the park and despite the fact that he was one of the better more reliable players in the squad. He is now at Aldershot but i believe he is at least middle table league 2 quality.


Players who were not good enough and were often given game time despite previously offering nothing were players like Elliot Benyon who also was left over from the Ling / Taylor regime despite not being in form for the past 4 years. When he left Torquay for Swindon in Jan 2011 he had scored 46 goals in 88 appearances in all comps for Torquay. At Swindon, Southend and Wycombe he totalled less than 5 goals for those three clubs and then came back to Torquay on a full time basis where he scored 3 in 24 appearances in a side that badly needed goals. He is now at Hayes & Yeading on loan.

Tom Cruise, from Arsenal to Arse. Not me, the words of Father Jack. If i continued on that basis then it would be quite clear that the next word that would most aptly describe the feelings of Torquay fans last season whenever he was in the line up would be FECK.

One of the worst full backs i've seen and i think conference level is even stretching his levels of ability. Another poor player left behind from the Ling regime that AK continued to deploy despite him being consistently bad.

Obviously Billy Bodin was available to Knill despite showing absolutely nothing in the season before. Knill had to play him to be fair to see if he could find the magic formula with Billy. I get that. I don't get sticking with a player that had shown nothing the previous season and then begins the new season in the same vein. It is like playing with 10 men half the time and given AK persisted with other players who were poor week in week out (not just Billy) then i dare say in some games it appeared that Torquay were playing with 8 men or less on an all too regular basis.

So these are the players Ling left that AK had to work with BEFORE he signed his own. I can kind of slightly understand that to a certain extent that AK had to play certain players due to injury / suspension which he tried to address by bringing in loanees. Anthony O'Connor, John Marquis and Paul McCallum perhaps being the stand outs but offset by Callum Ball, Adebayo Azeez. AK didn't do too badly with his loanees to be fair. It was more his permanent signings that caused the problems.

Also AK had a small squad therefore if 4,5,6 players were not good enough or underperforming most weeks then it would be difficult and disruptive to drop them all. Not least because who would come in to replace them?

This is management though. Like Neal says, he was PAID good money to make decisions and to get results. The only management decision i saw Alan execute was to try and get out of a hole that he couldn't fill by bringing in loan players at a further cost to the club. McCallum helped get the win at Bury as well as notching a couple more and O'Connor shored up the defence a bit. He simply could not manage the players he had at his disposal and as Torquay aren't Real Madrid, the option to buy his way out of failure wasn't there.

During the summer Alan appeared to take an age in adding to the squad. Perfectly understandable given the pressure each prospective player is under to relocate such a distance for such little money. That said, hearing reports of what some of his signings were on may have made this decision a bit easier.

Courtney Cameron came in and although still a young lad, it was soon clear he was struggling to produce the standard required for league 2 football. Failed signing.

Jordan Chappell arrived with a promising reputation and an interesting future. A tricky little winger seemingly with an end product. Seeing him hit his brace up at Sixfields early on in the season excited me greatly. Sadly i can honestly say that that second half at Northampton was the highlight of the season. Torquay never again to my knowledge hit those heights or anywhere near again. Obvioulsy i missed the Pompey win so i guess that compared.

Chappell (the promising footballer) basically disappeared off the face of the planet after this and i have absolutely no idea why. Maybe AK knows? Failed signing.

Karl Hawley came in, a man with a once predatory instinct in front of the onion bag most notably at Carlisle where he banged them in left right and centre. Again like Chappell, i was lucky enough to witness the one decent thing produced in a full season and that was his curler up at Morecambe in the first away game. Again, after that, Hawley (the once prolific goalgetter) basically disappeared off the face of the earth. AK still carried on starting him for a long time before realising about 10 games after the fans did that he was never going to score again or never really offered any danger. Now at Alfreton. Failed signing.

Dale Tonge, a man with a pretty solid lower league pedigree. Got forward loads at Morecambe before getting sent off and after that i don't think he passed the half way line again thus always giving the opposition little option but to attack him at will as he sat deeper and deeper. Why didn't Knill tell him to overlap anymore? Has the turning circle of the QE2 and the awareness of a blind rabbit. Failed signing.

Ben Harding came in too having helped Northampton reach the play offs in his previous season. If this bloke was bald then Torquay would have been in business but spent half the game stroking his hair and the other half jockeying players despite standing 85 miles away from them. Started the season as though he was invisible and got worse. AK stuck with him and i believe he got injured. Sad that it takes an injury to improve the side and not a great managerial decision to change things. Failed signing.

The young lads like Sullivan, Yeoman etc were not given a fair chance either.

IMO Knill did make one decent signing and that is Krystian Pearce but even Knill tried to diminish his confidence by starting him then dropping him then starting him then dropping him and so on and so forth.

So Knill FAILED to manage existing players properly and FAILED to manage his own players properly.

Given this, the next decision was critical.

The board had to sack Knill surely?

They did so but IMO and many others i don't doubt far too late. It was obvious in October that he looked totally inept as highlighted by performances and results.

Having said that though, the decision to appoint CH was the one which relegated TUFC regardless of timing. If CH had of taken over in October then TUFC will still have been relegated IMO.

To be totally blunt, when Knill went Torquay needed to stick someone in the hot seat who knew what the **** they were doing from day one. Someone with experience and someone who had something about them to shake things up. It would have cost money for sure but like Dave (forever) said on another post - chucking money at staying up was essential. Now look at things. If TUFC had stayed up then any outlay would be easier to deal with eventually.

Obviously there was always the chance that the club could have chucked money at someone and Torquay would still have gone down. If that was the case then how would things be any different to how they are now?

As a consequence of all this, TUFC are now managed by a man who clearly, despite his rawness hasn't the nous nor man management skills to become a successful manager. That means that Torquay United cannot progress so how is that better than being in the same boat but with less money should it have been ploughed into trying to save league status last season?

I did have some sympathy with Chris at first but at the end of the day he made all the media soundbites, he convinced the board he was the right man for the job (not sure if his interview technique won them over or the fact that he wanted a weekly packet of skips as a salary) and he let down the fans.

If the board simply had NOTHING with which to appoint a new manager then that's fair enough. Knill AND Ling had to be paid off and contracts of players had to be honoured. They chose Chris as a cheap option and it went wrong. If they WERE in a position to find the cash somehow to get in a renowned old head for the run in then they have mugged the fans off true and proper. I simply do not know which is the case so i cannot comment either way on what was right or wrong. Only they know.

The point is that the club are struggling and have a man in charge who had nearly half season to keep Torquay up. I believe he signed up Shaun Cooper who was the footballing equivalent of the Marie Celeste, he re-signed Danny Stevens to what end i simply have no idea, he added Conor Wilkinson, Aiden O'Brien, Jayden Stockley and Enoch Showunmi and offered fans who had set off for Hartlepool at about 4am spending lots of cash..........................a free pint.

I saw worse performances under CH than Knill and his response to being backs against the wall was to do nothing. Now he openly criticises players in public and shows little sign of learning tactically or exercising common sense.

Like i said before, Knill, Ling, Hargreaves, the board, the fans, gilbert, a sausage roll, keith chegwin or whatever or whoever. I think everyone had a part to play in relegation, although not sure about the sausage roll. I know for a fact that Keith Chegwin was hired to fire off motivational speeches before matches as he had energy and positivity and didn't care what clothes he wore. Can't say the same about CH i'm afraid.

The TUST is a great thing and must be enquired about. Not just that though, a group needs to be formed to be in some sort of position to prop up the club financially short term if anything went wrong. It's not just about helping to sign a player but it's about having a short term back up for when Thea decides enough is enough.

I don't know the lady but i can imagine that chucking cash at nobodies for no reward could soon become tiresome and could soon become a thing of the past meaning the club needs a back up.

The TUST or any organisation created to secure the short term future of the club if anything went wrong is vital. The above highlights a lot of negatives but now is a time for moving forward that all yellows should embrace. Only you can make it happen.

Like Neal says, GRASP it and be proud and part of it. Do it for yourselves, your club and your town.

Dave, i agree in the main with your points but when you say that no fan spoke up when Knill signed all this rubbish that was because nobody was to know they would turn out that way. Knill himself couldn't know either but HE was the only one who was in a position to something about it either by improving them, motivating them or dropping them and having the bollocks to throw in some youngsters instead.

To be fair to the fans (we - as was then) highlighted time and time and time again that players we already knew about weren't doing their jobs properly and should not have been in the side. Players such as Bodin, Nicholson, to some extent Benyon and even Mansell et al yet Knill continued to keep them in the side. Adding to that those signings by Knill that turned out to be complete pants in the end didn't leave TUFC much chance at all of staying up.

If a player is not performing then maybe stick with it for a while, try to get to the bottom of it and if poor form continues then leave them out. If this is because they are just simply shit or are homesick then it doesn't matter, get them out of the team and don't carry on playing them.

So nobody was to know that Hawley, Chappel, Harding, Tonge and others would turn out to be complete duds. Hawley had a similar profile to Rene Howe in that he had shown potential a few years back although gradually slipping down the leagues and seemingly looking for an opportunity to get his career back on track. Rene took his chance with us but now may as well open a newsagents. Hawley failed big time to take his chance with us and is now plying his trade in front of 600 people and American 'investors' who somehow think that a Conference North club next season in a town the size of my brain is worth bothering with. That is Hawley. His career is effectively over.

Chappell was talked up as an exciting talent. The only talent i think he has is being a better version of Billy Bodin and he will end up playing for someone like Stocksbridge Park Steels whilst working for Royal Mail part time.

I could go on but i'll spare you.

If Knill signed a new player and anyone came on the forum slating said player for being shite before he'd even kicked a ball then i for one would have thought it a bit harsh and negative certainly, especially as Torquay generally have a history of signing players that fall into the 'has potential / lost his way - could be anything' category.

Like i said before, Ling sold some good players and left behind some poor, underperforming ones who Knill continued to play as well as adding some more poor underperforming players to the mix. These were then added to with even more atrocious loan signings and Danny Stevens by CH resulting in a squad totally devoid of any quality, any unity, any direction and any leaders. Endgame - Relegation. Three managers were culpable and not one capable of doing what they were paid for. I can slightly understand the circumstances around Ling but let's not forget that before he went sick the football for a long time was awful and so were the results. Subsequent managers just weren't competent enough and one is still at the helm which, like i said means that TUFC will never be able to reach anywhere near their potential at any given point.

As for the statement by Philgull regarding Ling failed when he should have got Torquay up in his first season. Granted TUFC had O'Kane and Olejnik but no way did they have one of the best squads in league 2. I just think that everyone clicked and some of those players that sunk under the pressure of being at the bottom last season soared under the confidence of somehow nicking 1-0 wins every week almost to the point that they felt invincible. Take York last season, by Christmas they were down the bottom yet went on an amazing run nicking wins 1-0 here and there (including v Torquay at BC) by playing some of the worst football seen by a York side in recent memory and with one of the more average squads (quotes by may York fans i've spoken to). They reached the play offs.

Confidence, structure and being well drilled is why Torquay reached the play offs under Ling and not because of 2 or 3 'better than average' players. So IMO Ling far from failed in his job in his first season. Anything but.

Jarvis sent out on loan to Aldershot for remainder of season with no recall clause. It would appear that he has played his last game in a York shirt. From what i've seen of him at both Torquay and York he is another that is not league 2 standard IMO but i wish him well.

PlainmoorRoar wrote: Well if they won't be, i've been thinking about this tonight and would be awesome if we could as TUFC fans do something!

Is it enough? I don't know, but it could be and i don't mind giving it a dam good go!

Feel free to pledge if the target isn't reached your money is refunded

http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/help-torqu ... ell-berry/

Well, you and i certainly have our differences PR but i have to give the thumbs up for this post and you wanting to make a difference by actually DOING something about a situation. If others would grasp the nettle and follow suit then TUFC is in a lot healthier position going forward. It's one of the few posts i've seen encouraging change. I also saw your post on the TUST thread encouraging new members and that is what TUFC need more of. Proactiveness and willingness to participate. Hats off.

I also think it is important to note that when Knill took over he had been left some shite by Ling such as Cruise, Bodin, Benyon and Craig, he then signed his own shite like Mozika, Hawley, Harding, Tonge, Chappell (turned out to be shite in the end which very much surprised me actually - looked a really useful player in his early TUFC days) and then along came CH and added even more shite onto this in the form of Stockley, Showunmi, O'Brien, Wilkinson (all completely useless loan players - Shaq was the one exception) he then brought back Danny Stevens which instantly meant relegation.

Basically no team could ever survive having given opportunities to all of the above.

When i went to the Kassam last in January last season in what was CH's first away game in charge of the Gulls, Torquay were 2nd bottom and 2 points off Bury. With 20 games of the season still left to play i may add.

What i witnessed that day was a Gulls performance more alarming than most under Knill. Anything but the 'new manager' effect.

A while later i witnessed a 'must win' game up at Hartlepool in which we were all singing how much more interesting watching the concrete fence in front of us with our back to the action was than the game itself. Somehow a worse showing than at Oxford. Then i went to York for the night game a while later when we manfully defended a 1-0 deficit for the best part of the game.

Actually it was at Hartlepool when i knew (IMO) that CH was well out of his depth. I had an inkling before that like some others did (Supernickywroe) and others that he would struggle but the Hartlepool game confirmed it to me.

So in actual fact there was nearly half a full season for CH to get Torquay out of the mess. It wasn't so much that he failed but more HOW he failed. Never did i see a game where his decision making and substitutions lent itself to the team 'having a real go'.

So Knill and his rubbish were a lot to blame as were his ridiculous merry go round with Nico, Cruise, Downes, Pearce etc and woeful management which included sending one of our better players in Lathrope on loan to Hereford. The remnants of Ling such as Bodin and Craig were not good enough yet still persisted with (not so much Craig) and seasoned pro's like Mansell and Nico etc had looked like it was one season to many but were still heavily used.

I just think that before CH arrived that all round the club it was just such a total mess that Chris always had a massive task on his hands. The manner in which he went about it though means IMO that so long as he is at the helm then you cannot progress.

Overall i think he is doing probably as well as could be expected with what he has and considering the turmoil of last season in terms of league position, in terms of performances i couldn't say obviously.

The club just seems to have spiralled out of control since Ling went off sick, the wrong managers picked, the wrong players signed, wrong attitude, wrong training methods, the wrong decisions by the board, the wrong this and the wrong that. I think it just gets to a point where if you try to analyse all the little things that went wrong and contributed to Torquay being in the conference then you'd be there all day.
There is no one thing to pinpoint, just a long series of things that are wrong, were wrong and went wrong. It just happened.

Good luck in the FA Trophy anyway, looking at the sides left it's there for the taking. Is the final still at Wembley?

To be fair, i did slightly hint at the fact that Billy Bodin was never going to produce the goods after only a handful of games......

Bobby. Awesome today at Wycombe. Some York fans saying the best 'keeping' performance seen for 30 years!

Still lost 1-0 but it could have been 10.