Torquay United Fans Forum

desperado wrote: ↑13 Apr 2024, 18:57 Time for Jarvis and Dawson to show some guts and get out there and fight on Tuesday and Saturday , bad knees or not - none of this
' They're not quite ready yet ' bollocks

Totally agree. Time for these two to stand up and be counted! For the life of me I cannot understand why, as a football club, we don’t insist on Jarvis playing in these last two matches which are absolutely vital in terms of the future of our football club! It appears that, in the case of Jarvis, a scan has revealed no damage to his knee - it’s not the one that kept him out for months either - but according to the Manager, he is waiting for Jarvis to let him know when HE feels it is right? WEAK management as far as I am concerned- plenty of Managers I can think of in our past who wouldn’t stand for that - just get out there and play! Similarly with Dawson, who along with Jarvis, through no fault of their own, has drawn a, no doubt substantial, wage from the club all season but due to their limited availability have delivered poor value for money for the football club.

It is almost certainly the last professional contract that Dawson will earn in the game …. so why not give it one last effort to at least achieve something at the end of your full time career - albeit not the promotion that we all hoped for at the start of the season- but sadly, “success” for us now would be avoiding relegation to the ignominy of Southern League Premier football.

I know Jarvis, in particular, is keen to project an image of someone who cares about the club and is trying his very best to get fit and play a part before the season ends, but the rumours that he has already set up a new deal next year and doesn’t want to put that at risk will still linger - and, ultimately, if he doesn’t feature in the next week - then most will probably draw their own conclusions when he ultimately seals a deal with Yeovil, or whoever, in the summer.

As for Lewis Collins, laid up in bed apparently, well as far as I am concerned, you can stay there mate! If there was a better example of one of Johnson’s “shrinking violets” it would be hard to find one - although there are a few in this squad!

I hope DOA will declare himself fit for Tuesday, after all it is almost certainly his last week of being a full time footballer and that should be motivation enough to put himself forward, for a position on the bench at least.

Don’t imagine we will ever see Dan Martin again - but then again, we haven’t really seen him all season have we? What a strange decision it was to offer him a contract in the autumn, given his questionable fitness at the time!!! A complete waste of money - but typical of this lazy regime.

I fear for us on Tuesday, because I am realistic enough to realise that most of the above won’t happen. By all accounts Taunton put in a great battling performance today - full of character, desire and “all in it together” sort of attitude.

The players at the likes of Taunton, Truro etc are desperate to stay at this level because they know if they get relegated they will either have to accept reduced terms or try and find alternative clubs - not easy when you are at this level and in this area. Whereas, unfortunately for us, our lot know that there is unlikely to be a future for any of them at this football club next season - so why should they care? You also feel that their players REALLY want to play for their Managers - Rob Dray and Paul Wotton - can we really say that about Aaron Downes? Not sure we can.

Lose at Taunton and it’s no longer in our control - there is a series of results that COULD see us relegated even IF we beat Havant on the final day …. that is the sad reality of where we are and what we have become in what is the lowest part of our long and proud history

brucie wrote: ↑28 Mar 2024, 18:37 And they have put that out straight after the TUST went public. Strange....

Absolutely. Hidden in amongst all the praise for the support of the fans there is that little “nugget”. Clearly in response to the TUST’s announcement today … but unlike with the TUST’s openness about those TUFC fans who are behind their bid …. we still have no clue as to who this other party is and what their plans are and who may, or may not, continue to be involved in the decision making at TUFC?

In Downes post match interview he is honest enough to admit that our away form hasn’t been good enough all season - something Johnson would never have said. Similarly he is honest enough to say that he needs to reflect and accepts responsibility for that defeat - something Johnson would never had said. But when he says he will look to install “fight, passion and commitment” into the team, you have to wonder what happened between Tuesday’s abysmal defeat to Taunton and today’s abysmal defeat to Tonbridge? If he couldn’t manage to do it in the last 4 days - then what makes him think he can do that now???

I’m sorry to say, but although Downes says “all the right things” by apologising to the fans, time and time again, he is simply not up to the job. As I have posted previously, now is the time to “scrap” for points by making us hard (as we can be with this lot!) to beat in every game by first and foremost trying not to concede! It appears that today we were (yet again!) far too open and Tonbridge just picked us off time and time again by counter attacking us at every opportunity and exposing our obvious defensive frailties!

Just one more thing, I know Asa Hall probably realises that his playing career is coming to an end and he may be hoping that if Downes and him enjoyed some success he might be able to secure a future for himself at the club in management- but the reality is that we, as a club, need his influence more on the pitch than as an “assistant manager” at this moment in time and the time has come for him to contribute ON the pitch rather than OFF it - even if it means him playing as a Centre Half - which I reckon he might be suited to - let’s face it he surely couldn’t do any worse than the present incumbent(s) ?

I am struggling to understand those who continue to defend the Osborne/Johnson regime. Ultimately the FACTS speak for themselves- under the period of ownership/management we have ended up in the worst position the club has been in for close on 100 years. Seriously, how can anyone defend that ???? It has been a complete and utter disaster FULL STOP.

Time for the Manager and players to stand up and be counted. Downes needs to start by dropping the “shrinking violets” in other words Tomlinson.Collins, Ash and even McGavin and replacing them with the likes of Marshall (crap though he is) Lapslie, W J-D, DOA and even Hall. We need to start making us difficult to beat first and foremost and solid (as we can be with this lot!) at the back and not playing such an open game, and change the attitude of thinking we are too good for this League …. we clearly aren’t! We need to scrap for every point now and with just 9 games left - but 6 of which are away- we need to turn around our dreadful away form which has been awful all season. Especially as we now know that our home form cannot be relied upon any more.

I also believe that after the initial “euphoria” of Osborne and Johnson going - the reality is beginning to hit home and sadly the prospect of Southern League football is now a very real possibility. It begs the question how much did Osborne or the directors know what the implications of this action were? Unfortunately, but predictably, neither the club or the local media made the fans aware of this outcome …. despite it being widely predicted on social media weeks ago. We can only hope that there is someone out there that can step in and save our club …. but it doesnt help when that idiot Richard Hughes at “Devon Live” firstly names Smurthwaite and Masters as two of the bidders - and then “disses” both of them as not wanted by Torquay fans? How does he know what TUFC fans think? I don’t know how many of them he knows … but I doubt it’s very many! He has been truly woeful in the whole reporting of the current situation … and wasn’t even alive to this possibility until the early hours of this morning… despite it being common knowledge on fans forums for over a week or more!

As for Smurthwaite …. well he did chuck a lot of money into the club initially and did win them a promotion before things unravelled. I believe that in the past he has said he wouldn’t be interested in a club that didn’t own the freehold of the ground ( for obvious reasons!) so the fact that he is even considering us is an interesting development in my opinion. If there is one thing we have learned after the Osborne disaster (and Chris Roberts before) we are not an attractive proposition for anyone who is simply looking to make money off of us as an “investment“

North Curry House wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 19:31 Can someone tell me what was the point of the so called "protest" by walking out after 60 minutes? I counted around sixty (so called) fans leaving. It looked like a load of sheep following each other.

After the final whistle, a few blocked the exit outside the main offices. I would like to see the police move them on, this week should the same occur.

Hoping for an improvement from the players and "fans" on Saturday.

COYY.

Interesting. My best guess was between 200-300 who walked out! Guess we will never know, but watching it develop from the family stand, I felt pretty sure it was a hell of a lot more than 60!!

Hi Tralee, yep the routine at kick off was indeed mentioned!!!

Obviously the idea is to get us up the pitch, but as GJ stated it “is never their intention for the ball to be kicked straight out of play, but sometimes nerves play a part”. He did also mention that he thought we did score a couple of goals from the routine- although couldn’t remember the games as such - where “Jarves” headed the ball on and it led to a goal.

As for the 10 games judgement, you are of course right. It is the time period GJ sets for himself to see where the team is at, rather than on what he is doing. But the guy who asked the question, perhaps quite rightly, felt it should also be applied to the management as well!

exilegull wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 12:00 Thanks for that CP, really appreciate you taking the time to do that.

On this comment

I think 50/50 success rate on loanees would be incredible and I'm sure it is nowhere near that, I'm sure we can name a lot more duffs than successes.

Hi Exile, I take your point, but have to say on this particular point I do agree with GJ. Without question we have seen some wonderful talent over the last few years and I highlight some of the very best below …..

By my calculations, we have had 43 loanees join us under GJ’s tenure. Some of whom went on to become permanent signings.

This is very subjective of course but these are the players who I feel improved us while they were here, some much more than others though:

Lemonheigh-Evans; Vincent; Janneh; Lewis; Cundy; Edwards; Longbridge; Boden; Law; Randell; Sherring; Armstrong; Duke-McKenna; Sparkes; Wearne; Collins; Dawson; De Silva; Ellis; Evans; Goodwin; Lawrence; Ness; Nouble; Stobbs

Those who did a job:

Warren; Azeez; Britton; Perritt;

Those who were disappointing:

James; Kimpioka; Sheaf; Street; Aguiar; Fadahunsi; Hughes; Smith

Who?

Touray; Medford-Smith; McNulty; Tomlinson (Lucas); Crole; Iseguan;

So overall, some absolute quality there, some solid, some disappointing and some long forgotten. But overall, not too many duds.

Well if Gary Johnson and Downsey thought they were going to get an easy ride at the forum last night - that notion was shattered with the very first question. One fan of 60 years standing, produced a prepared statement on a sheet of A4, bemoaning the fact that in his opinion last season was the worst football he had seen in all his years of watching the team. It went from bad to worse when the same fan reminded GJ of his “judge me after 10 games” statement from last pre season and he even asked GJ as to why he didn’t leave last season and “why are you still here?” . He also bemoaned the lack of progression from youth team to first team - pointing out the successes of the last couple of years, and yet none of last years intake has been retained and only Callum Evans has been taken on this time around.

It’s fair to say that this was probably a lot tougher ride than many had expected for the management team. Over the course of the evening they were challenged over poor recruitment and tactics and reminded of how many times during the early months of this year that we threw points away in the closing stages of games, particularly at home, where we saw several winning positions turn into disappointing draws and draws into defeats.

The lack of options, particularly attacking ones, from the bench, in the second half of the season was also raised and the suggestion was made that this had cost us countless points as other teams had the option to bring fresh options off the bench to affect games, when we couldn’t.

In their defence, the management team were keen to point out how they managed to get the team they wanted with ten games to go and tried to bring the focus around to how positively the team had finished with GJ bringing up the reference that Wrexham thought we were “the best team we have played” after the end of season clash.

GJ also reiterated his surprise at how many of that end of season team he had managed to retain. He expected to keep maybe 5 or 6, but ended up keeping 8 or 9. Downsey also revealed that 2 or 3 of those staying had also turned down more money at clubs higher up than us to stay - because they liked the club, liked working with the gaffer and the camaraderie in the squad.

They defended their position on PSFs - it was a club decision not to play local sides. A combination of injuries suffered to the likes of Martin, Lapslie, and Jarvis, combined with the poor state of some of these pitches, meant that their focused shifted to matches against u21 sides on pristine pitches and the chance to scout players from clubs they have a good relationship with was given priority.



On the subject of Dan Martin an update was given. They really like him both as a player and as a person but it is very much a case of “wait and see” as to whether we end up offering him a deal. As Downsey explained, his 45 minutes against Reading u21s was his first competitive action for 10 months. They are encouraged by that performance and the medical reports they have undertaken. He has suffered badly from what appears to be long Covid which badly affected his breathing and damaged his diaphragm. As GJ pointed out, one of his biggest strengths was, and hopefully still will be, his athleticism. But clearly until they are sure he is back to where he was they cannot offer him anything just yet, but they remain hopeful.

One attendee, rather unfairly in my opinion, questioned GJs success rate with young loanees he has brought in during his tenure and suggested his “success” rate was about 50/50. GJ rebuffed that, and suggested he might draw up a list of the good ‘uns in his programme notes. To be fair, I reckon we have had far more better ones than duff ones since he has been here.

GJ has very high hopes for Bradley Ash and is convinced the fans will love him and his attributes. They are still working on recruitment and clearly the loan market will play a big part in filling most of the gaps. He defended criticism of his recruitment by reminding people how difficult it is to get players down here, despite being a lovely area, they just don’t want to move away from the big cities and their families etc.

The concern over artificial pitches was raised and Downsey confirmed we face 8 of them this season - but he didn’t see it as too much of a problem as we train at SDC and of the current squad only Hall and Moxey are over 32 although Dawson has just recently turned 33 to add to that list. Most of the rest, he suggested, were at or close to the prime of their playing careers.


As for full time professional teams in this League - GJ passed that one over to Downsey (along with the artificial pitches one) as he only knew of us and Yeovil, but Downsey suggested Eastbourne are another one along with a couple of others (Havant etc) who he deemed “hybrid” which seemed to throw GJ!

There were comparisons made with the team that got us promoted from the NLS as champions last time around and GJ seemed to think that our current team would compete favourably with them, albeit it’s all hypothetical.

One questioner asked of all the players that we have had under their tenure who would they most like to see playing for us again now and whilst GJ rattled off half a dozen names, it was Downsey who came up with a straight answer … Kyle Cameron!

GJ also put up a stubborn defence of Clarke Osborne when questioned on the subject. He said in all honesty, he liked him and trusted him. He has no reason to lie as he’s in a job and towards the end of his career so why would he need to. He admitted that he keeps a low profile but that’s because he is a successful businessman who in his opinion is humble and doesn’t seek the limelight, but that he is a proper football man and that both his sons are involved in football too. In what capacity, he didn’t elaborate.

Whilst blowing his own trumpet, GJ also explained why he likes to keep any potential targets under wraps as much as possible as with over 40 years in the game, it often happens that if clubs get wind of who he is tracking, that attracts the interest of others. Of course when trialists are identified by fans, then there is nothing he can do!

On a final note, whilst some have questioned the validity of the strength of the Reading team we played, GJ still referred to them as their u21s. But for those wondering what the make up of the Bristol City team will be this Saturday, there was the “revelation” that we won’t be playing BCFCs u21s now after all. The reason being that BCFC were expecting to play Reading in a first team friendly but due to problems at Reading they have had to pull out of the fixture. So Bristol City have been in touch to ask if we would mind playing their FIRST team instead!!! Albeit, still behind closed doors.

So there you have it, far from the easy ride, that many might have expected! But, as is his way, GJs light hearted approach at times during the course of the evening, with the odd gag thrown in meant that it was all pretty convivial by the end - even managing to raise a smile at the end out of his most critical inquisitor!

Personally, I’ve given up on trying to make a call on what represents a decent signing for us or not, especially after the last couple of summers. Take last summer for instance- was I more excited by the signing of Corrie Andrews or Aaron Jarvis? Well, I should say that that turned out differently to how I expected ! Likewise, some of the other players we signed that I thought would do well for us … simply didn’t.

Gone are the days where we can hope to sign players with a proven track record at a higher level - especially now we are at the level we are at. So, realistically we are having to either take a punt on other teams “cast offs” or we are trying to pick up players who have a decent track record, at the level we are at now - and you would have to say that Ash fits the bill based on 24 goals in a struggling NLS side last season. Would he be good enough at NL level? Who knows as he is largely unproven at that level. But at this moment in time, an established NLS striker at a good age and a decent amount of experience may well prove a better bet than a young Academy player released by an EFL side, with little or no experience of men’s’ football.

Time will tell …..

Just spent some time looking at our recruitment since that dreadful day at Ashton Gate. We can all bemoan the players we have lost in those last two years but the quality of their replacements have, I think we can all agree, has not not been at anywhere near the previous level.

Leaving aside loanees, and youth players who earned a pro contract ( for what it’s worth ) - here is a list of players we have signed on a permanent contract and where they are now ….

Kieran O’Connell - Released 2022 (Weymouth)
Alex Addai - Released 2022 (Leatherhead)
Ali Omar - Released 2023
Dan Holman - Released 2022 (ON Chechnecks FC)
Klaidi Lolos - Released 2022 (Oxford City)
Mark Halstead - Offered new deal 2023
Dan Martin - Unsure
Tom Lapslie - Offered new deal 2023
Gabby Rogers - Bude Town
Byron Moore - AFC Telford
Joe Felix - Dulwich Hamlet
Opi Edwards - Bath City
Shaun Donnellan - under contract
Ross Marshall - under contract but
Brett McGavin - under contract but
Ryan Hanson - under contract but
Aaron Jarvis - under contract
Dylan Crowe - under contract but
Rhys Lovett - offered new contract 2023
Corrie Andrews - Transfer > Wealdstone
Louis Tomlinson- unsure
Ben Wyatt - released 2023
Jacob Mensah - released 2023
Frank Nouble - offered new contract 2023

So there we have it. Overall, I would argue a lot more misses than hits! The concern would be that there are perhaps four players in that list that, as it stands, will be with us next season who, I think it’s fair to say haven’t proved themselves at NL level. In a perverse sort of way, it may be a blessing that we aren’t “lumbered” with these players taking up a fair chunk of the wage bill at NL level - as there is surely at least a chance that they may be effective at NLS level? We live in hope!!!

Another observation, is that it’s quite frightening how “low” some of the intake of the summer of 2021 have fallen - which makes you wonder where some of the summer of 2022 might also end up!

Overall though, the impression is that, ultimately it has been poor recruitment over the last two summers has cost us big time and leads us to where we are now.

Interestingly though, when you look at the squad that GJ took over in September 2018, from Gary Owers who in most fans eyes was a disaster as Manager, it should be clear that Johnson inherited a squad that included Shaun MacDonald; Ben Wynter, Kyle Cameron, Liam Davis; Opi Edwards, Asa Hall, Jake Andrews; Jamie Reid and Ruari Keating. In all honesty, I would struggle to argue that, as it stands, we are going into this season with a stronger squad than that!

As is always the case …. recruitment is vitally important - perhaps never more so than this summer after what has to all intents and purposes been a disastrous couple of summers!

When you see their line up …. it’s little surprise that they are streets ahead of us tonight. The like of Palmer; King; Mandeville, Colclough, Dallas and McCallum have all caused us problems, and I think have scored against us probably, for all their previous teams. Was always going to be tough!

Totally agree. If we had started the season with this squad we would have been comfortably mid table at least. The likes of Lawrence, Dawson and Nouble and to a certain extent Stobbs and Collins have improved us considerably.

Unfortunately though it is the “loan” players in the main, with all the players mentioned above and the likes of Evans, that are making the difference.

The “only” players that are out “own” players that have really made an impact are those that have been here a while …. Halstead, Moxey, Hall and Lapslie. But credit where credit is due, both Jarvis and Donnellan have, at least, made a positive impact.

Most of those that have been recruited over the last couple of summers, have quite simply been proved to have not been good enough at this level. Some may turn things around, but ultimately there are a lot of players who have yet to prove themselves ….. Lovett; Crowe, Martin, Omar, Marshall, Mensah, Tomlinson, Wyatt; Hanson, McGavin …. all of whom look short of the the quality needed at this level in my opinion.

That’s TEN players there, that are drawing a wage (quite a decent one in some cases I imagine) that have really not delivered value for money. Ultimately that has been a serious cause for concern for all us fans - the recruitment has been so poor in the main and something needs to change!

Mr Tea808 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2023, 19:46 A hard earned point, but not really enough, from what I gather, Gateshead probably deserved more...But GJ tonight, come on, is he for real??, You've signed Dawson and Stobbs KNOWING they've hardly played this season, and then you turnaround and moan about it??, well if you knew that, why get them in?, This sums it all up, it's 100% being geared up for relagation, it reminds me of the bleak mid 80's , just using so many players, and making it up "on the hoof" it looks like it's 3 from 5 at the bottom, with Maidstone pretty much gone now, I can't realistically see us catching York or Aldershot, at a glance Dorking's run in is probably easier than ours on paper,right now the table looks bad.

No “shouting or screaming” here - but GJ’s post match interview was a load of old nonsense. But, of course, he knows he is always going to get an easy ride from whoever the club or local media put in front of him. Like you say, HE signed Dawson and Stobbs knowing full well they weren’t “match fit”. HE chose to play Moxey, who has missed a couple of games - over a perfectly fit Wyatt - because he knows Wyatt isn’t good enough (despite having signed him). Likewise he could have started with a perfectly fit Hanson, but no, he hasn’t played much because you haven’t picked him! Again, because he isn’t good enough! As for McGavin, not being fit - in the pre match interview you (GJ) yourself said the injury he had (whatever it was, ‘cos the fans are NEVER told) didn’t affect him too badly as he had been able to train normally all week - so no excuse there either! Then there is “Rhysie” who had to come on for 20 minutes despite hardly having played this season - err, just like all the other number 2 goalies throughout the land then!!

The ONE player you could have put into this category was, of course, Asa Hall - who has unfortunately been out for a long time with injury and is being “eased back in” but you seemingly forgot to include him in “the list”. Never mind, save that one for next week, eh!

I guess the referee must have had a decent game up there, and the pitch must have been good and we weren’t just plain unlucky - which is why he had gone down this road, but it really is quite embarrassing for him to stand there and make this his excuse as to why we didn’t win the game.

Well at least we did manage to draw I suppose. I don’t think I could have put up with another “we keep losing by just the ONE goal” type of excuse again!

Bristol_Gull wrote: ↑07 Mar 2023, 21:39 Do you think GJ will stay if we are relegated? If it’s looking increasingly unlikely that we’ll avoid the drop and the manager leaves / will not be retained then why not cut the losses now and give someone else a shot?

I agree. Regardless of what you think of Gary Johnson it really doesn’t matter now. This team is clearly not good enough to keep us up and I cannot see a scenario where GJ can continue next season in that scenario. The owners/directors clearly don’t WANT to sack him and to be honest it’s too late now anyway. I understand that GJ doesn’t want to retire on a relegation- it’s a sad end to his management career (which has had many more highs than lows) but it’s “not all about him” and much as it sacking him would be a sad way to end his career …. the bigger picture is the future of TUFC. As for GJ, I sincerely doubt that he will even want to manage again - he’s had his day, but it would be selfish on his part to see this season out on the basis that he can go out on a “high” of keeping us up (unlikely). The time has come to appoint a Manager with a view to next season - someone who can hopefully see us bounce back from NLS. It would be daft to expect anyone to come in at this late stage and save us from relegation from the NL …. because quite simply the squad is nowhere near good enough and in reality both the Johnson brothers and Downes know that too. If they don’t, then they just need to look at videos of the last half a dozen games or so and look at the quite frankly pathetic number of goals we have conceded from free headers in the box! Embarrassing from a Sunday League side …. let alone a National League one!

Time for a change - but it’s too late to realistically expect anyone to turn thins around. Our only hope is too bounce back quickly next season- but that is going to be a big,big ask!