Politics

[usagullmichigan]

All I hear about here is "you have waiting lists" I say "well we do within reason but it is better to be on a waiting list than not being able to afford to treated"

I watched Sicko a few years ago and iy is brilliant and sad. Michael Moore is a very nice guy and just tells it as it is. He has put a fair whack of money into Traverse City as well just trying to help people.

[chunkygull]

i have been on waiting lists for things before and have known many people close to me or through work who also have been on waiting lists.. i dont know anybody who has had to wait too long for appointments and small or urgent procedures that are easy to diagnose.

in fact i dont know anyone who has waited too long for appointments at hospital in general.

however, the only thing that bothers me is sometimes a person goes to a doctor with symptoms that could mean all sorts of different scenarios or illnesses. it takes too long to diagnose a lot of things if you ask me.

i have known some people close to me, aquaintances and professionally that have gone forward and back to doctors, hospital and consultants having test after test etc. they are told were going to test you for this, going to test you for that. they start at a level of the least serious then work their way up. eventually they have to sart looking for the serious heavy stuff and guess what they find something bad.

so quite often at this point said people are told, oh we are sorry there isnt much more we can do for you, its too late im afraid. if only we had found out what you had sooner.

why dont they start testing from the worst case scenario and then work backwards. that way if its serious the problem is caught early, if its not serious it gets found later, yes, but no harm done.

i bet money and costs has a major part to play in this.

[AustrianAndyGull]

i have been on waiting lists for things before and have known many people close to me or through work who also have been on waiting lists.. i dont know anybody who has had to wait too long for appointments and small or urgent procedures that are easy to diagnose.

in fact i dont know anyone who has waited too long for appointments at hospital in general.

however, the only thing that bothers me is sometimes a person goes to a doctor with symptoms that could mean all sorts of different scenarios or illnesses. it takes too long to diagnose a lot of things if you ask me.

i have known some people close to me, aquaintances and professionally that have gone forward and back to doctors, hospital and consultants having test after test etc. they are told were going to test you for this, going to test you for that. they start at a level of the least serious then work their way up. eventually they have to sart looking for the serious heavy stuff and guess what they find something bad.

so quite often at this point said people are told, oh we are sorry there isnt much more we can do for you, its too late im afraid. if only we had found out what you had sooner.

why dont they start testing from the worst case scenario and then work backwards. that way if its serious the problem is caught early, if its not serious it gets found later, yes, but no harm done.

i bet money and costs has a major part to play in this.

Again chunky, you are spot on with this. Without wanting to dwell on morbid things, my dad died of a brain tumour about 10 years ago in his early 50's. He was a dedicated northern brickie, out at the crack of dawn and back after 6, he didn't smoke or didn't drink but that's beside the bye, anyway, before he was diagnosed he collapsed at home out of the blue and had a seizure. It took the hospital nearly two months to diagnose his condition in the meantime he was sent home 3 or 4 times.

My point is that if i was a doctor, if a previously healthy person has a seizure out of the blue then the first thing i'd do is book them in for a brain / head scan. Common sense but they also cost lots of money. Money which my dad had paid into the system by working since he was 16 so he more than most was entitled to this. Doncaster Royal Infirmary failed him and took the p*ss. I'll never know if my dad would still be here if the docs had diagnosed it straight away but the course of action they should have taken was obvious to me and i'm not a medical professional.

[cambgull]

You only have to look at places like South Africa for the right idea. If you're sick and you go to a Doctors, they automatically check for Malaria, Yellow Fever and the like. The blood tests are sent down and you get a response within an hour, and how much does it cost for this? About R30, or just over £2 at the time. And this is in a country which is bordering on third world, certainly the area where I worked was.

Yet here, great, we have an NHS and free healthcare. But as has been said, it's all about ticking boxes and keeping the costs down. Nothing about actually caring for a person's well being.

I would love to know how many people are killed each year by failures in the NHS to do the right checks at the right time.

[chunkygull]

"usagullmichigan"

Michael Moore lives in Traverse City (my city) and is well respected here but most americans see him as a traitor. They say that sicko is lies. It's not lies. My daughter was refused to be seen by a doctor at 3 months old because 2 insurance companies had exchanged her paperwork. Needless to say I lost my temper.

"usagullmichigan"
All I hear about here is "you have waiting lists" I say "well we do within reason but it is better to be on a waiting list than not being able to afford to treated"
I watched Sicko a few years ago and iy is brilliant and sad. Michael Moore is a very nice guy and just tells it as it is. He has put a fair whack of money into Traverse City as well just trying to help people.

cambgull
Yet here, great, we have an NHS and free healthcare. But as has been said, it's all about ticking boxes and keeping the costs down. Nothing about actually caring for a person's well being.

I would love to know how many people are killed each year by failures in the NHS to do the right checks at the right time.

just watched michael moores SICKO again on youtube. the americans running healthcare should be bloody well ashamed of themselves.

i know i have moaned a bit about some of the NHS standards and failings that irritate me and it looks like im not alone in some of my opinions but my god i am so glad we've got the healthcare system we have.

the americans ridicule the canadians, poor scorn and disdain on the french and paint cuba as a dangerous enemy being run by satan himself. watching this film and seeing the advantages in healthcare, and other ways of life that these countries have, that the americans dont approve of is a real eye opener.

i know i rightly and correctly accused our nhs of not carrying out checks, tests and procedures as money saving exercises and as cambgull rightly said its about ticking boxes,keeping costs down and not enough about care and a persons well-being. however what these american companies get up to and the things they dont do is absolutely outrageous and scandalous, whilst bordering on fraud and in some cases technically manslaughter.

michael moore does seem like a really decent guy trying to do the right thing in this film. other things i have seen of his do seem a bit sensationalist at times but he backed everything up with a lot of evidence in this one.

i specifically liked a bit near the end where he performed a very ironic act of extreme kindness.

anyone who has an interest in healthcare standards, politics or even just good eye opening documentaries should watch this film. i am going to watch moores other stuff again when i get time, very compelling viewing.

a very emotional documentary in a strange way that made me feel quite proud of our country and the nhs.seeing the fat cat medical insurance companies sneer and politicians taking kickbacks from them really made me angry.or as one of our fellow posters often would say "really makes my p!$$ boil.

[Colorado Gull]

Really love seeing this thread grow! The NHS debate has been a good one, especially with chunkygull!

Just with some political news, the Eastleigh by-election! The Lib Dems regained their seat, but UKIP come a close second! A terrific result for UKIP, we are well and truly being recognised as a proper party and if the Tories (who came third) didn't split the UKIP vote, then UKIP's first seat in commons would have been elected! The Labour Party, came in a resounding 4th place!

[Alpine Joe]

It certainly proved to be a close race in the end. If the well organised local LibDem's hadn't got so many postal votes in early, in advance of the Rennard scandal blowing up and causing a lot of negative publicity to flow the way of Clegg and his Party, then I'm sure you would have won. Had it been decided in the old fashioned way based on votes cast on the day at a polling station then indeed there would now be a UKIP MP.

I'm sure you also meant to say the Tories came third rather than second...just as well to rub their noses in it when you've got the chance.

[Colorado Gull]

Yes I meant 'third' not 'second' and I agree Joe!

[stevegull]

Very impressive result for UKIP indeed Danny. And the voters are saying they're not just voting for them for the whole actual European independence thing but because they do have some other good policies that people can see working. Also very impressive that the Lib Dems held the seat. I doubt they will hold many come the next election!

I know by now I may seem like a 'Labour basher' (and I do dislike Miliband) but despite their brave faces this result MUST be disheartening for them? Miliband said the result showed that people were not happy with the government (strange considering Lib Dems held the seat and are part of government) but surely Labour should have been the party they voted for if they wanted to show disillisionment with the coalition in particular. For that reason I think the result it incredibly disappointing for Miliband and Balls. People are really starting to show their disillision with mainstream parties.

I wonder how the result would have gone if Farage himself decided to stand.

[Colorado Gull]

The local Lib Dems did a good job like UKIP to take the Eastleigh vote, the locals have had a Lib Dem MP for a good number of years and have apparently got on well there with the Libs. Therefore, it was a very good chance the Liberals were going to win, but I can't see them winning many in 2015!

UKIP have terrific policies not just regarding the EU! I think people are finally seeing this and that UKIP are a party to be taken seriously and Nigel Farage should be included in the television debates in 2015. If Farage decided to stand? I'm not 100% convinced that the results would have differed. Maybe the votes may have been closer together, but because the Lib Dems have been the party in Eastleigh for a number of years, I think they would have been winners anyway. Farage chose to not stand to show the country that UKIP are not a one man band and have many members and candidates to do the job! Hopefully, that'll be me in the future!

[chunkygull]

definitely a good showing from ukip. the amount of publicity in the last few days surrounding this by-election has given ukip a good platform and raised the profile of the party.

you cannot help thinking about the point yet again what could be acheived if people made an informed choice and voted for policy rather than vote for the same old party they always vote for, just because and thats the end of it.

what has to be remembered is ukip is still a relatively new party up against parties that have been around for a hundred years plus in one form or another. that is partly why it will be tough to break the generational voting syndrome.

party wealth is another thing.you need wealth and lots of it to win seats and elections. money buys you the publicity that is essential to win as well as all the payoffs and bribes required .the other parties after all this time would have built up massive war-chests . they will also have financial backing from the corporate businesses, banks, unions and various unsavory organisations that pay them to do favors or look the other way so they can break the law or carry on their business in any manner they choose.

i bet the lib dems are looking over their shoulder now though.

i would love to see the monotony and stranglehold on british politics broken. i probably would vote ukip in torbay if they were represented. but i do fear it will always be the same old tory or lib dem down here.good luck to them i say it would make a refreshing change to see something new and different.

[chunkygull]

sorry to go on about the NHS but this article caught my eye today and on further investigation found articles on this story and others similar. this just helps make a point i said earlier about nutrition in hospitals and helping those who are unable to feed themselves.

the NHS has been riddled with scandal of one kind of another lately and this piece just compounds a few nasty facts of under-staffing and inadequate training to some staff. just to be clear though i am not blaming nurses or care staff. -

Nearly 1,200 people have starved to death in NHS hospitals because 'nurses are too busy to feed patients'
•For every patient who dies from malnutrition, four more have dehydration mentioned on their death certificate

•In 2011, 43 patients starved to death and 291 died in a state of severe malnutrition

•Department of Health branded the figures 'unacceptable' and said the number of unannounced inspections will increase

Vulnerable Martin Ryan starved to death in an NHS hospital after 26 days without proper nourishment

As many as 1,165 people starved to death in NHS hospitals over the past four years fuelling claims nurses are too busy to feed their patients.

The Department of Health branded the figures 'unacceptable' and said the number of unannounced inspections by the care watchdog will increase.

According to figures released by the Office for National Statistics following a Freedom of Information request, for every patient who dies from malnutrition, four more have dehydration mentioned on their death certificate.

Critics say nurses are too busy to feed patients and often food and drink are placed out of reach of vulnerable people.
In 2011, 43 patients starved to death and 291 died in a state of severe malnutrition, while the number of patients discharged from hospital suffering from malnutrition doubled to 5,558.

Dianne Jeffrey, chairwoman of Malnutrition Task Force, condemned the statistics.
She told The Sunday Express: 'Too many are paying the price with their lives while being deprived of the basic right to good nutrition, hydration and support.'
.
the article continues with items about the mid-staffordshire care trust scandal and a bit more about feeding and malnutrition.

shocking? yes! surprising? no!

the full article is here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ients.html

i have said it for a long time and have had feedback from patients and their families that hospitals should invest in better more nutritious food and have more staff distributing food quicker so it is still edible. also would it hurt to have a few staff specifically for feeding or helping feed those who are unable.

these few things would save money over the long term on cutting wastage and helping patients return to health quicker, therefore freeing up beds and other resources.

[chunkygull]

same story being featured in the dailies today.

THE SUN -

A STAGGERING 1,165 patients starved to death in NHS hospitals over the last four years.

Nurses were “too busy” to help some patients eat and drink, a report claims.
Health watchdog the Care Quality Commission is now vowing to step up the number of surprise inspections.

It already checks most hospitals, care homes and home care agencies “at least once a year”.

The Department of Health said it was “completely unacceptable” if patients go hungry but added a new IT system should give nurses more time on wards by cutting paperwork.

The DoH said many patients who suffer or die from malnutrition and dehydration are admitted with these conditions.

Patients should be screened for malnutrition when admitted and at weekly intervals. But cancer sufferer Kane Gorny, 22, died from thirst at St George’s Hospital in Tooting, South West London. He was so desperate for a drink he called 999 and asked cops for help.

And last month a damning public inquiry into the Mid-Staffs Trust found up to 1,200 patients died needlessly between 2005 and 2009 as a result of poor care at Stafford Hospital.

[chunkygull]

sorry to go on guys, i must reiterate i do appreciate the NHS and all the good it does. it is a wonderful thing and without it we would be screwed, just look at the way the americans do things. but another day another article and its also been on the telly all morning. this absolutely compounds some of the things we have said on here.

just a few relevant snippets -

the telegraph-

Billions in extra cash fail to stop rot in NHS
Britain is failing to keep pace with improvements in public health in other Western countries despite NHS spending tripling over the past 20 years.

Premature death rates from a series of conditions, including heart disease and breast cancer, are significantly higher in this country than in similarly developed nations such as France, Italy and Spain, researchers said in a report on Monday.

Although public health has generally improved, other countries have made greater progress, leaving Britain “persistently and significantly” lagging behind the EU and other global powers.

Life expectancy increased by 4.2 years to 79.9 between 1990 and 2010, but the UK still dropped from 12th to 14th on a list of 19 Western nations.

Authors of the report say it should serve as a “wake-up call” to the NHS to improve public health by tackling problems such as obesity and smoking, and to diagnose and treat conditions at an earlier stage.
Figures from the House of Commons library show that NHS spending has risen from £46 billion in 1990 to £122 billion this year, based on 2011 prices

The report, published today in The Lancet, shows that smoking is Britain’s highest cause of diseases that lead to premature death. High blood pressure is second, but treatment has barely improved in 20 years, with the condition still only being controlled in a third of patients.

Prof John Newton, the co-author of the study from Public Health England, a new Department of Health body that will take over the role of the Health Protection Agency next month, said: “In the health service there is so much for them to do in treating people they just have not felt they have the resources or time to take on prevention as well.”

It found that factors such as obesity, alcohol, a lack of exercise and bad diet were still among the leading causes of illness in Britain despite millions being spent on public health campaigns.

Prof Kevin Fenton, another co-author, said prevention and early treatment could lower the burden of poor health on society. “This report is both a wake-up call and an opportunity for the UK,” he said.

“To improve public health we need to redress a historic imbalance by focusing more on primary prevention and the promotion of well-being. The reality is nearly all of these conditions are either preventable or amenable to early intervention.”

Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary, will today say that 30,000 people a year die too early because of the “shocking underperformance” of the NHS, which remains a “poor relative” of its European counterparts. These lives could be saved if the NHS focuses on the five biggest killers — heart disease, cancer, stroke, respiratory and liver disease — and improves detection and treatment, he will tell the Commons.

the full article -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... n-NHS.html

just proves the points about money wasted on management, box ticking and taking too long to diagnose conditions.

i have seen the great things the NHS can do as well as the bad, it is a great thing but it is on the slide. it can be much better if run properly. the government needs to intervene and shake up the management system by cutting down on it and going back to basics. trying to cut costs in the first place is what incurs greater costs down the line.

the people who know how to run the NHS properly are the medical professionals and they are not listened to enough. the trouble is after a while of this people stop giving a sh!t because its like banging your head against a brick wall.

[Colorado Gull]

Chunkygull

New topic gentleman? What's everyone's opinion on the death penalty?

Go!