Clark Osborne

[WainwrightGull]

Edwards role anybody ?

Answers on a postcard please.

[Admiral]

For decades I used to go to every home game, and 5/6 away a season. I have been twice this season. I have supported the club and players through thick and thin, but with a manager who disrespected the supporters and thinks he’s doing the club a favour, as well as an owner and board who couldn’t give a **** about the future of our club I simply can’t be arsed with it all anymore. I fully respect those that still attend, if everyone was like me we wouldn’t have a football club, but this is the sad reality surrounding the club at present. I can’t wait for the day we have a board and manager we can get behind, Torquay United or AFC Torquay.
Gary should have gone two years ago.

[exilegull]

There is huge potential at TUFC, however we'd be lucky to find someone willing to part with significant amounts of money on potential alone.

Is there huge potential in TUFC? Historically its been a difficult place to attract players to and the area is struggling economically.

I don't see much prospect of Torquay ever becoming a self-supporting club to compete at league level, rather it needs a generous benefactor and potentially a lucky cup run, or the odd player sale could mean it some years it could break even.

[Scorpion]

Unfortunately, I think a degree of realism is called for.

Torquay United have historically been a Football League club for a long time, but the support level isn't really there to sustain an EFL club without additional funding. Can't remember the last time Torquay got close to an average of 3000 fans at games in a season. A lot of EFL clubs' money comes from TV revenue or Premier League solidarity payments, but the problem with having dropped out of the league years ago is that the club no longer receive either. Two bigger -league - clubs on either side. So Torquay are looking for players not good enough to play for Exeter and probably not good enough to play for Yeovil either, given that most of them have to drive through Somerset to get to Devon and I get the impression that YTFC are prepared to pay more money.

I can't berate Clark Osborn for not being willing to plough a fortune in to the club as I don't see anyone else prepared to do it either. He is reportedly investing sufficient money to keep the team professional, and IF he is doing that without saddling the club with debt, then he has my gratitude.

If we're honest, a lot of the current dissatisfaction comes from the fact that as fans we think of TUFC as being "too big" for the National League South. I do feel the club should be doing better than it is, as most clubs in the National League South do not have the resources of Torquay United, but I don't see that the club's inability to do so is the fault of the owner. It's all very well just knee-jerk firing the manager, but unless you can get someone else better in you've accomplished nothing.

[culmstockgull]

I agree there is a lot of potential at Torquay but a total lack of realism, we are at this time are in a huge mess, can we get back to the league, yes, but certainly not overnight. We need outside investment but without assets that is nigh on impossible. we need meaningfull fan involvement other than traipsing through the gate every saturday and booing after turning yet another potential win into a draw or a loss.
Many things need to alter, I agree that we are sandwiched between two bigger league clubs but that should work hugely to our advantage in terms of loans, I am no longer sure that clubs will willingly loan to us when johnson more often than not returns them injured, as for yeovil paying more, probably right but that can only go on for so long and historically our crowds have been as good or better than theirs.
I would start with a total overhaul of the backroom staff as a means of saving money, but hat I suspect will not happen until the season ends, assistant manager should if we actually need one be replaced by a first team player who can coach, goalkeeper coach, what is the point of him when both our keepers have played at a far higher level than him, conditioning coach, that hasn't worked out oo well, and it goes on and on.

[exilegull]

I can't berate Clark Osborn for not being willing to plough a fortune in to the club as I don't see anyone else prepared to do it either. He is reportedly investing sufficient money to keep the team professional, and IF he is doing that without saddling the club with debt, then he has my gratitude.

He is saddling the club with debt, but as far as I see they are interest free loans and there are no assets in the club that actually provide any security so the prospect of retrieving any money without the club being successful is next to nothing.

Like most others I'm absolutely sure Osborne is primarily interested in the land around Plainmoor to develop for housing as opposed to any great love fo Torquay United, however I recognise that without him its highly likely there would still be a club, certainly not one that is capable as remaining full-time in National League South and he is continuing to put in a lot of money without any real prospect of anything.

[madgull]

Unfortunately, I think a degree of realism is called for.

Torquay United have historically been a Football League club for a long time, but the support level isn't really there to sustain an EFL club without additional funding. Can't remember the last time Torquay got close to an average of 3000 fans at games in a season. A lot of EFL clubs' money comes from TV revenue or Premier League solidarity payments, but the problem with having dropped out of the league years ago is that the club no longer receive either. Two bigger -league - clubs on either side. So Torquay are looking for players not good enough to play for Exeter and probably not good enough to play for Yeovil either, given that most of them have to drive through Somerset to get to Devon and I get the impression that YTFC are prepared to pay more money.

I can't berate Clark Osborn for not being willing to plough a fortune in to the club as I don't see anyone else prepared to do it either. He is reportedly investing sufficient money to keep the team professional, and IF he is doing that without saddling the club with debt, then he has my gratitude.

If we're honest, a lot of the current dissatisfaction comes from the fact that as fans we think of TUFC as being "too big" for the National League South. I do feel the club should be doing better than it is, as most clubs in the National League South do not have the resources of Torquay United, but I don't see that the club's inability to do so is the fault of the owner. It's all very well just knee-jerk firing the manager, but unless you can get someone else better in you've accomplished nothing.

A very good post, and I'd add that it's players who not only aren't good enough for Exeter or Yeovil, but also who are willing to take the risk of uprooting from the network of pro and semi-pro clubs in the South East.

Moving away from employment prospects, probably for less money than you could make playing part-time with a half-decent "regular" job, isn't something that many people are willing to do for a one-year contract at a troubled club.

We also aren't going to get any decent youth prospects come to us, because again why would you when there is the outstanding Exeter in one direction, and Plymouth the other?

We're left with the dregs at every level. We were a more inviting prospect when we were in League 2/National League (or at least bouncing between them), and there wasn't a massive cost-of-living crisis, AND we were still developing players and selling them to bigger clubs. Unfortunately, we seem to have slipped below the "worth the risk" line for the established players we so desperately need.

[Admiral]

Unfortunately, I think a degree of realism is called for.

Torquay United have historically been a Football League club for a long time, but the support level isn't really there to sustain an EFL club without additional funding. Can't remember the last time Torquay got close to an average of 3000 fans at games in a season. A lot of EFL clubs' money comes from TV revenue or Premier League solidarity payments, but the problem with having dropped out of the league years ago is that the club no longer receive either. Two bigger -league - clubs on either side. So Torquay are looking for players not good enough to play for Exeter and probably not good enough to play for Yeovil either, given that most of them have to drive through Somerset to get to Devon and I get the impression that YTFC are prepared to pay more money.

I can't berate Clark Osborn for not being willing to plough a fortune in to the club as I don't see anyone else prepared to do it either. He is reportedly investing sufficient money to keep the team professional, and IF he is doing that without saddling the club with debt, then he has my gratitude.

If we're honest, a lot of the current dissatisfaction comes from the fact that as fans we think of TUFC as being "too big" for the National League South. I do feel the club should be doing better than it is, as most clubs in the National League South do not have the resources of Torquay United, but I don't see that the club's inability to do so is the fault of the owner. It's all very well just knee-jerk firing the manager, but unless you can get someone else better in you've accomplished nothing.

So it’s not the owners fault or the managers fault? Who’s is it? We’d have an above average gate in the NL.

[happytorq]

There is huge potential at TUFC, however we'd be lucky to find someone willing to part with significant amounts of money on potential alone. That leads me onto my next point, my frustration with our club grows by the week, almost to the point my piss is beginning to boil.

As much as I love the club I think I'd have to disagree with the "huge potential" here. Historically we're a League 2 side. for the vast majority of our history that has been our level - however, the landscape has changed - there are a lot more clubs now, most of whom have more money than we do, and they usually have the luxury of being closer to large population centres. It would have been unthinkable even 25 years ago that Sutton United or Salford or Fleetwood would be league sides, and yet there are. All 3 of those are close to a big pool of players from a variety of clubs, and that makes recruitment easier - it also makes finding people to come through the turnstiles simpler.Hey, are you a Man Utd/City fan unable to get to Old Trafford? Go to Salford City! You might even see one of your childhood heroes there!

I think the unfortunate reality for us is that our 'potential level', based on fanbase alone (if such a thing exists) is probably challenging at the top end of the National League. Given our attendances and therefore likely income, that seems the most likely spot to be in. Certainly, there is the possibilty of improving the commercial and business side of the operation to bring in more revenue, and therefore offer a greater a chance of playing further up the pyramid, but that does not appear to be the aim of the current regime, regardless of whatever they may actually say in softball interviews with Torbay Weekly and in condescending 'online fans forums'.

Thoughts of playing League football appear further and further away with each passing week. Does anybody really think that the club will kick on if, say, we do manage to make it up via the playoffs this year? I don't think anybody is is kidding themselves that we would - instead we'll probably expect another season of struggle in the National League, and for me that's probably the most depressing bit of this new reality.

[happytorq]

Can't remember the last time Torquay got close to an average of 3000 fans at games in a season. A lot of EFL clubs' money comes from TV revenue or Premier League solidarity payments, but the problem with having dropped out of the league years ago is that the club no longer receive either.

quick bit of internet research suggests that the last time we were at 3,000 average home attendasnce was in 2004/2005- and that was our League 1 season. To be honest I've been surprised with how good our support has been. we're averaging 2,300 so far, which means at least 2,200 home fans. That's really not terrible - it's higher than 4 of our seasons in the division above.

[culmstockgull]

In relation to regular attendees at home matches I have been pleasantly surprised how the crowds have held up considering, how expensive it is compared to other clubs in this league, the poor standard of football on offer and for the last few months watching what is effectively a reserve version of the team. Additionally with the exception of myself who would not know what to do with their saturday afternoons people in general wish to be entertained , see value for money and go away thinking yep, we may come back again.
Success breeds positivity and attracts support. United are a fractured club full of the wrong supporters according to one individual, the club lacks honesty and certainly intergrity towards the fans,those that pay the majority of the day to day bills.
We are in terms of time nearly two thirds of the way through the season and still await the promise of being able to put out our strongest first eleven, no other club would operate in this manner, no other long suffering fans I am sure would tolerate this situation.

[Dave]

Decided not to directly quote, but do a general response to points raised by exilegull, Happytorq and scorpion

For a start I'll give an opinion on the point about Torbay being an economical depressed area, think I saw a stat about something like 20% of Torbay residents live in one of the top 10% of depressed areas, this for me comes under 'damn lies and statistics' for a start if that 20% never have any intentions of going to a TUFC match this would never effect our potential gate figures, I'm not doubting there are those struggling in Torbay right now no where in the UK is immune, but is Torbay more depressed compared to any like for like area, probably not, the jobs market around this way has never been so buoyant, and the days of wage stagnation for many long gone, for instance there are major employers like 'MB Aerospace' who can't fill all their vacancies paying up £14-17 hour plus dependant on shift pattern, their not alone, my opinion on this can be born out by the fact, anyone can walk a couple of minutes in any direction and find a '23' reg car, and the ques at Maccies drive thru aren't getting any smaller, also it has to be understood, TUFC home crowds are made up from people of Torbay, Teignbridge and South Hams.

When I put the word 'huge' in front of 'potential' I will concede this was a mistake, but the last line of the last sentence is just one reason why our club does have some potential for growth, I will repeat something now, that I've posted a few times, to the point I'm boring myself with it, the very fact our gates are holding up around 2,000 has nothing to do with the good old diehards that will not leave the side of our club, it's more down to an ever expanding group of 'new' young fans on the popside, I know a lot of the good old diehards, and it's from this group I know some fans personally who are staying away because of the cashless turnstiles, I know some who are staying because of GJ's continued employment at the club, I know one who doesn't always know till match day if he can attend and refuses to pay the extra £2, but the wonderous local board are happy to turn away custom for shorter ques, reversing the cashless turnstiles and ending the £2 match surcharge are straight forward, admittedly changing the manager is a much bigger decision, but when he's costing you business in paying customers , which will only grow unless things improve, we can only hope someone at TUFC grows a pair and does what is long past needed.

So there are three reason presented in the last sentence that's shows why I'm right to suggest there's potential to add at least 1,000 to our gates, with some different decision making.

Look, there will always be a few fans at every club in and around our level that will believe, our/their clubs should behave like Manchester City , please credit the majority of us with some intelligence, we can see Barnet 3 times relegated from the EFL, we can see Grimsby and ourselves twice relegated from the EFL, we have seen massive clubs for the non-league such as Notts County and Chesterfield struggle to regain their EFL status, and more relevant to recent history Hartlepool maintain life in the EFL for two season before suffering their second relegation, and one look at the bottom of League 2 shows Sutton could well be on their back to the non-league pyramid also, so we don't need a dose of realism at all, the majority of us, myself included truly know the footballing landscape has changed.

It's not, nor has it ever been about demanding our rightful place in League 2, because in reality we're not an EFL club anymore, it's about questioning whether our club is performing to the best of it's ability on and off the field, answer is no it's not, nowhere near, the demand is purely about making changes to insure our club does better than it is now, which as stated has the potential to grow and be better.

Talking location, budgets and difficulty attracting big name players down here, is backward thinking, 30 years ago the club didn't have worry about getting big names to move to Torquay, we developed our own, Monk, Sharp, Moore, Hall to name a few, yes that ship has sailed long into the night, tell you what ship hasn't.

A development squad, run a development squad, yes it costs money, but a hell of a lot cheaper then paying Hall and Dawson to sit in the stands, paying out more money to bring in cover for them, cheaper than bringing the likes of Hanson and McGavin on 3 year contracts in the hope they might turn out to be hits.

The likes of Lolos and Crowe aren't lost to the club, we perhaps wouldn't see the likes of Aldershot taking players from Willand, perhaps law would be with us, and Austen Booth who may or may not end up at Dageham, as many TUFC fans know him have made made aware of , these players could all be at TUFC being developed by us, also gives you a real time pathway from the u18's, perfect job for Asa Hall to run.

Hope I've convinced some the potential is right in plain sight, starring us in face here at TUFC, with the right people making the right decisions.

[culmstockgull]

Dave ,I see a lot of sense in your comments, where others have suggested Torbay is economically depressed is an irrelevance, working class area is far more descriptive and accurate and the core environment of the football supporter. I agree that there a solid base of supporters which can fluctuate, adverse weather, poor run of results and my favourite one, depressing tuesday night football, four of us travel from the outer reaches of the county, due to our advancing age I am the only one trusted to night drive, when I am not available that is four less through the turnstile and I am sure that is replicated throughout the county.
Under the management of Johnson local acquisitions have become as rare as hen's teeth, although his arguement has always been that our location makes life difficult in getting the right players to move ,our supposed scout is M25 based and johnson only really likes players he has had before, a locally based scout would find more than enough competant players that could still live at home, I also agree on a development squad , a far better vehcicle than our youth system.
Agree the likes of Hall should be running or at least have input to our younger or development players, what else does he do for the majority of the season.
Potential, yes we have it, but realising it must start from the bottom up, a complete reorganisation of the club, certainly while we remain in the south, scrap the youth system by accepting that the local football league clubs will snap up the best talent way before johnsons brother has got out of bed, the way we operate at the moment is crisis management week to week, we have known since before christmas our forwards are injured but it took until the second week of january to source someone who lasted three minutes and will probably never be seen again, that is not football management, that is panic buying of the worst kind, I do hope that the likes of edwards and above will seek some advice from their peers at other clubs who have a football based education and background, as a suggestion get Warnock in for a week as a consultant to tell you what is right and wrong and listen to what he says.He is a straight talker with no axe to grind but his knowledge of football is second to none. what have we to lose.

[standupsitdown]

I can't see anything improving.
We may still get into the play offs but unless it's 2nd or 3rd I can't see us beating the likes of Maidstone away - or even Aveley.
A reformed community owned club working its way up through the leagues is more appealing than years of (managed?) decline.

[culmstockgull]

Standupsitdown, totally diagree with you on this one, and pouring oil on a situation that our owner must love, well if the fans dont want me then I am off,result no ground,no name, no players, not even a lawn mower etc etc, and you are assuming that we will be like other phoenix clubs that automatially fight their way back up the leagues, I believe scarborough have been out of business twice since their community club started, scunthorpe desperately hanging on to not to be a phoenix club, it will not be as straightforward as you think and twice as difficult as you can imagine. If we go,we are gone forever.