Stadium fan ownership

[Dave]

Some very good and interesting posts above, I've never disagreed with the view point that Plainmoor isn't the most prime building land, however doesn't this all rely on a site being found for a new ground, and new ground actually being built.

The problem for many is, what happens down the line, when potentially no site has been found to move TUFC, so there's no prime land, CO then is left funding a club he doesn't want,with little chance of getting his return.

Spires won't need to move into plainmoor, and would CO want to cut his losses and run, I don't know, who does.

[Dave]

Owners of Manchester City are Oil Barons

They brought the club so they dig for oil.

Ahhh of course.

I get it now and their plan long term now.

Plainmoor is valueless and he doesn't even own it.

Get over it by now.

I wonder, what the difference could be, between an Emirati royal wishing to have ownership of a Premier league cash cow, and an English property developer who acquired by default a defunked football club

[Admiral]

Osborne didn’t buy the club for the love of the club or the game!

[happytorq]

I actually think this is a more feasible alternative to a new stadium. It would presumably be lower cost and less likely to come up against nimby opposition from people objecting to living next to a football stadium. Also building it 'out of town' shouldn't present any problem if it has adequate car parking. One thing I like about Plainmoor is the nearby pubs which you wouldn't get if a new stadium was situated on the outskirts of Torbay/Teignbridge.

On the actual stadium - I've long thought that the way a half-decent developer could maximise revenue from a new place would be to also build up the area around it. So, you have New Plainmoor sitting on a parcel of land, hopefully with a bit of parking and access to a train station. And *then*, within walking distance, you have a bunch of buildings that can be uses as pubs, maybe a cinema, a bowling alley, that sort of thing - that the owner/developer would own and charge rent upon.

Now, I don't know much about property development, and of course it'd cost more, but if you have those other near the new place, you not only create a better experience for fans, but you have a steady income stream even on non-matchdays, and the local economy also gets a boost.

Again, space in Torbay is limited, so surely somewhere 'out of town' is likely to be the only vialble way of giving the club a new gaff. You could reduce the 'out-of-town-ness' by giving the area a sense of...I dunno, "self-contained-ness" with peripheral businesses. All pie in the sky, of course, and not something I expect CO to be interested in.

(Training ground complex seems the most feasible option though)

[Southampton Gull]

On the actual stadium - I've long thought that the way a half-decent developer could maximise revenue from a new place would be to also build up the area around it. So, you have New Plainmoor sitting on a parcel of land, hopefully with a bit of parking and access to a train station. And *then*, within walking distance, you have a bunch of buildings that can be uses as pubs, maybe a cinema, a bowling alley, that sort of thing - that the owner/developer would own and charge rent upon.

Now, I don't know much about property development, and of course it'd cost more, but if you have those other near the new place, you not only create a better experience for fans, but you have a steady income stream even on non-matchdays, and the local economy also gets a boost.

Again, space in Torbay is limited, so surely somewhere 'out of town' is likely to be the only vialble way of giving the club a new gaff. You could reduce the 'out-of-town-ness' by giving the area a sense of...I dunno, "self-contained-ness" with peripheral businesses. All pie in the sky, of course, and not something I expect CO to be interested in.

(Training ground complex seems the most feasible option though)

Look at the Swindon Speedway 'model'. Development of housing took place but stadium development didnt and that is the carrot I see dangling in front of Osborne.

[happytorq]

Look at the Swindon Speedway 'model'. Development of housing took place but stadium development didnt and that is the carrot I see dangling in front of Osborne.

Well, quite. That is clearly the fear with CO. To be clear, I don't really expect any stadium under Osborne - I was talking in a broader sense about what stadium ownership for the club could look like in future. Obviously Osborne's plan from the beginning has been to make a small fortune from building houses...somewhere, and the existence of a stadium or club after it's all done isn't a priority. The strategies I've mentioned in this thread probably won't ever apply to him.

I could possibly see him trying to take the landlord approach; separate the stadium ownership from club ownership. If he owns a stadium he could then charge rent to the club to use it - that's a model that's been exploited by other nefarious types, and it usually doesn't end well. It's also the path of most resistance.

[The Eternal Optimist]

Plainmoor is a community based club - close to amenities, on a bus route, has plenty of on road parking, set in the midst of its fans. A move away to some characterless stadium would be a disaster. There is no flat land anywhere near, either on the ring road, or in Teignbridge, (would all our fans travel that far every week, I don't think so), that would be big enough to accommodate a football stadium, a large enough car park (forget the whole idea if there's no car park), and all the other amenities that CO wants. The whole scheme is totally unrealistic, and I think he knows that by now.

[happytorq]

Plainmoor is a community based club

I would argue pretty vehemently that TUFC as it exists now is not, actually, a "community-based club", but yes, in an ideal world it would be.

A move away to some characterless stadium would be a disaster.

That's the rub, though, isn't it? Surely not every new stadium is 'characterless'. In any case, the character of a place is created by the experiences that people have there. A half-decent team will help, but facilities to make the place an enjoyable day out would help just as much.

I could see it another way, that a new ground could revitalise the club by getting more people there. Plainmoor is fine for 2 or 3 thousand gates but for any more than that, it's a nightmare to park near. And that's to say nothing of both the away fan experience and the security concerns that more than 150 away supporters bring. Get a place near a train station, or closer to a big road, and it could be good. No, I don't know where that would be, but dismissing the possibility out of hand seems just as pointless as saying "move the club or die!".

Done sustainably, with half decent intentions and (crucially) a well thought out business plan, it could be the exact kind of thing to help the club move forward. (admittedly, that's not ever going to happen under the current ownership)

(would all our fans travel that far every week, I don't think so)

We have fans coming to Plainmoor from places like Reading. Our away support is second to...well, if not 'none', then 'very few', considering our home gates.

I guess a better way of phrasing the question is "would everybody who comes now still go to the new place?" and the answer is.. we don't know, but probably not. But I do wonder if there are people closer - let's say around Exeter - who might want to visit the Gulls if you could get there and parked in half an hour, rather than having to venture up through Hele, Barton, past Cuthbert Mayne, only to then spend 30 minutes finding a parking space. To entire point of trying something new isn't "Let's keep every single person already going to Plainmoor happy", it's "Let's see if we can find a way to encourage the people of South Devon to go to Torquay United rather than Exeter City or Plymouth Argyle or *gulp* Exeter Chiefs"

The whole scheme is totally unrealistic, and I think he knows that by now.

Well, yes. Feel he expected the council and everybody else to roll over and give him what he wants basically immediately, and as it hasn't happened his scheme seems increasingly far-fetched.

[The Eternal Optimist]

By 'community based club' I meant it is situated right in the middle of a community - adjacent and convenient to its fans.
I don't think there are that many fans who travel from places like Reading, that would make a difference to the size of the Plainmoor gate. The club has to consider that the majority of its fans that attend matches are based locally. That must be obvious, I would have thought. Of course there are an occasional few who travel long distances to get here for matches. I've done it myself when I was living elsewhere, to get to special games, for example, a cuptie.
What railway station do you think we could build a stadium near? Answer, there are none, because there is no suitable land near any local station. ie. Torquay, Torre. I would have thought that was an obvious observation.
Plainmoor is in a unique position for a football club. Be careful if you wish to move away from it. Would Exeter City ever want to leave St James Park? Only if they ever got in the Premiership I should think. The siting of SJP allows the fans excellent access to their football club. If it was out of town, all spectators would need to drive there. Not a good idea.

[culmstockgull]

Eternal optimist, I am not sure what you classify as based locally, if you mean walk to the ground then plainmoor is inportant to that section of fans, alhtough I have no eviidence I would suggest that most fans, drive or use public transport so the criteria for plainmoor being the centre of our football universe loses traction. I have been a supporter for 50 plus years and have a 70 mile round trip for each game and regularly car share with two fans from tiverton who are also members of the 50 plus club(just started this one).
I do not mind where we play football, success is far more inportant than location, if we get a new ground that produces revenue streams that plainmoor cannot match then it has to be a positive thing.

[Taelee73]

With all the new building of housing and industry/supermarkets around Edgingswell, along with the long mooted plan for a new train station based there, maybe this is an option?
I assume land

was compulsory purchased for the building of the new dual carriageway, so it's not setting a precedent.
A ground there would have great car and maybe soon train access up towards Exeter and down to Plymouth, with the Willows nearby and pubs. Parking could be incorporated.

The clubs first choice was the old tip at the Willows, so maybe it's an option?

[Skillsy]

Let's be honest......our club is never going to be a big club, in the top two divisions of English football. There is nothing wrong with ambition, but realistically our ambition has to be to regain Football League status. If that is achieved, possibly a couple of seasons in League One to follow, that is as far as we can hope for..........For me, that would be enough.
Football, in the modern era, has become obsessed with money. My passion is Torquay United, whichever division we are in. Moving to a new stadium is not what I want, we have a ground more than capable of playing in League Two. Unless we acquire a sugar daddy, which I really hope we do not, we will float around our current level for the rest of time. That is not a bad thing.
Salford is a good example....the injection of big money has moved the club to a higher level, but many fans wish for their old club back. Same with Man City, they are without doubt the best team in this country but it's become a big commercial organisation, dominated by money.

Stay at Plainmoor.........it's the heart and soul of our club.

[leetufc]

By 'community based club' I meant it is situated right in the middle of a community - adjacent and convenient to its fans.
I don't think there are that many fans who travel from places like Reading, that would make a difference to the size of the Plainmoor gate. The club has to consider that the majority of its fans that attend matches are based locally. That must be obvious, I would have thought. Of course there are an occasional few who travel long distances to get here for matches. I've done it myself when I was living elsewhere, to get to special games, for example, a cuptie.
What railway station do you think we could build a stadium near? Answer, there are none, because there is no suitable land near any local station. ie. Torquay, Torre. I would have thought that was an obvious observation.
Plainmoor is in a unique position for a football club. Be careful if you wish to move away from it. Would Exeter City ever want to leave St James Park? Only if they ever got in the Premiership I should think. The siting of SJP allows the fans excellent access to their football club. If it was out of town, all spectators would need to drive there. Not a good idea.

I live in Preston which I would consider local and Plainmoor is a pain of a location. I have to drive and parking is poor, its not on a good bus route and a long walk from the nearest train station.

SJP is next to a train station and close to most main bus routes. SJP also has other match day revenue streams that Plainmoor is unable to offer.

[Cheddargull]

I live in Preston which I would consider local and Plainmoor is a pain of a location. I have to drive and parking is poor, its not on a good bus route and a long walk from the nearest train station.

No. 12 bus from Preston to Fleet Walk then 35A from Fleet Walk to the Union pub seems pretty good to me.

[torregull]

With all the new building of housing and industry/supermarkets around Edgingswell, along with the long mooted plan for a new train station based there, maybe this is an option?
I assume land

was compulsory purchased for the building of the new dual carriageway, so it's not setting a precedent.
A ground there would have great car and maybe soon train access up towards Exeter and down to Plymouth, with the Willows nearby and pubs. Parking could be incorporated.

The clubs first choice was the old tip at the Willows, so maybe it's an option?

The station at Edginswell has got planning approval now and the funding,Nightingale Park is to become a solar farm.There may however ,be opportunities not too far away, on the ring road; Gallow's Gate area.