Politics

[Jerry]

The problem for me is that for every Pole coming here is there a Brit going the other way? For every Lithuanian that comes here is there a Brit heading for Vilnius? For every Romanian heading to our shores is there a Brit bound for Bucharest? For every Latvian rocking up to the UK is there a Brit making their way to Riga? For every Bulgarian coming here is there a Brit looking for a new life on the Black Sea? Forgive me the geography lesson but the answers to all these questions is no. There is a massive disproportion of people coming to Britain than leaving for these countries and therefore it means one thing. A huge strain on local services at a time when everyone is cutting back as it is. It's mental really and there simply has to be some sort of criteria for people coming here like do they have a job to go to, have they considered the implications with regards housing ( i personally believe that any newcomer to the uk must at least work and pay into the system for a few years before getting housing preference over British workers ) and where they are going to live, have they enrolled on an English course at a local college? .

Brits may not be heading to Poland but there are more Brits living in Spain than Poles in the UK.

[Dave]

Difference is English ex-pats in Spain are not given benefits or social housing with such ease.

[Jerry]

Difference is English ex-pats in Spain are not given benefits or social housing with such ease.

The vast majority of Poles in this country are hard workers just trying to support their families like the rest of us. Foreigners make an easy target in times of economic hardship, as has always been the case. Just because someone was born on the other side of a completely arbitrary line on a map doesn't make them less deserving.

[Southampton Gull]

It does when they've not paid into our system and are able to take money out of it to send back to Poland.

Yes, some Poles are hard working but don't for one minute think that applies to a high percentage of them because living near a city where 1/10 are Poles I can tell you they aren't.

I'd like to see proof of your earlier statement that there are more English residents in Spain as well.

[ferrarilover]

Looks like we've found a Conservative then.

You are partly right about the two reasons UKIP have gained votes, but you have missed the third which is the steady increase of votes they have received the last couple elections due to the views drawing slightly more to the middle. You are also making the classic mistake of confusing UKIP with the BNP, which shows how much you're talking out of your backside, once again. The BNP are the ones who want to blame "Foreigners, blacks, Muslims, Jews and Gays" (such a middle class, detached from reality way of putting this, by the way). UKIP aren't about segregating certain societies who are already a part of Britain, it is about solving the problems we are currently having by stopping more from happening in the future, immigration being a prime example. The damage is already done by the Conservatives and Labour though, who have both spent too long bowing to political correctness.

If we don't stand up and actually make a change to the way this country is run, we will just carry on the same vicious cycle of picking the other party to the one we currently don't like. All that seems to happen at the moment is we are in a Conservative phase, where cut backs are made, taxes are increased and the focus is on increasing the money in the Government pot. Funnily enough, the only two good things in terms of money going to the general public's pockets are Lib Dem policies. Eventually though, we'll get fed up of oppression from the Conservatives so we'll end up with a Labour Government who will put the money back in the public's pockets. Except they'll totally screw up the country in the process and we'll end up with another Conservative Government who make cut backs and oppress the working class again.

Honestly, what is the point of doing this over and over again? It just shows how stupid and short-sighted our nation is. We're full of too many people who have no knowledge of politics and vote for the shadow party solely because they don't like the current incumbents and then we have too many people who vote for one party and one party only, because they've "always voted for that party". Despite this unchanging allegiance, they have no idea about any of the policies their party are standing for. Labour or the Tories could make one of their main policies the want to murder all of the working and middle classes and I bet you they'd still get a quarter of the votes from people who don't really have any interest in politics and wouldn't have a clue who or what they are voting for.

I'n not confusing the two at all, I am entirely aware of the difference. The BNP say what UKIP are thinking, and, on occasion, what UKIP say...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... lieve.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... emark.html

That was with all of 20 seconds and Google.

A look at the local council manifesto reads like the after dinner conversation at an old folks home. No more foreigners, more prison time for everyone convicted of everything, deporting foreign criminals, lower taxes but more services. Yeah, all sounds lovely, but there's absolutely no plan as to how they might go about achieving this.
Closing the borders to all but 50,000 people per year, yeah, lovely, until that means we can either have students or doctors or nurses or other professionals, rather than all of them. Sack off the students and we are relying entirely on British talent to drive us forward. Sack off foreign Doctors and nurses and we will have to ditch the NHS. Other professionals and we will have a massive shortage of scientists, engineers and thinkers.

Tax foreign lorries using British roads. Lovely idea, except, to make it viable and worthwhile (it will cost a fortune to administrate) the rates would have to be astronomical, which will simply deter companies from sending goods to Britain. Either that, or the companies which do choose to pay will simply pass on the additional cost to the customer. That lovely loaf of bread you bought for a quid this morning, if this lot have their way, will be a fiver. Lovely, excellent, at least our Prime Minister is a smoker and there's no NHS anymore, so with any luck, he'll be dead soon. But wait, there's more...

The reason we can't deport foreign criminals is the ECHR and our domestic equivalent, the HRA 1998. Sure, this legislation makes it impossible for us to deport a couple of people we might otherwise wish to get rid of (although, quite why we want to take a known* terrorist out of a British jail where we can keep an eye on him and give him to Jordan, where he is just as likely as not to "go missing" is beyond me). However, this is the same legislation which guarantees that no one here will be tortured by the State, prevents compulsory or forced conscription, prevents detention without trial, prevents the State being quite permitted to arrest anyone, for anything, without redress. Prevents what you said in your post (and what I said in mine) from being made into a criminal offence for which you may be punished retrospectively.
Now, of course, there is no guarantee that, should the HRA be repealed and our membership of the EU be forfeited, that any of these things would happen, but at least at the moment, if they do, those responsible can be stopped. It's a bit like having car insurance. Sure, it's expensive and the chances are, you won't crash, but if you do, on the off chance that it does happen, you haven't a leg to stand on, and that feeling is considerably worse than the alternative of forking over a couple of hundred quid a year.

The UKIP policies and promises have been laughed at by plenty of people who know. The numbers, even to someone who doesn't know seem simply ridiculous. They bang on about saving money by sacking all the council officials earning too much and reducing expenses, but these sums are trifling, they won't make the merest dent in the amount we already owe, let alone the money UKIP will need to hire all these extra policemen, border officials, prison guards, judges, CPS lawyers, people to assess the tax liabilities of foreign lorries, people to assess the viability and usefulness of virtually every single public sector worker or department in order to see if they can be safely scrapped, all the extra benefit payments to the millions of people who they hope to lay off as "red tape nobodies". Their 40% increase in the defence budget, for what purpose exactly? The military already spends 99% of its time sitting about waiting for a war which will never come. The other 1% is deployed in the desert, fighting a war which wouldn't exist if we simply came home and stopped sticking our noses into other people's business.

UKIP are just like the Lib Dems have been for a number of years, making all sorts of promises they have absolutely no hope of implementing because they are unworkable and unaffordable for our nation. Yes, it's a lovely idea, and yes, there are times when I see a piece on the regional news and wish that we did have a PM who would bring back hanging for happy slapping and yobbish behaviour and I do wish that we could tax everyone but me to within an inch of their lives so that I may have an extra few quid in my pocket, but in the real world, that simply isn't going to happen and it can't happen and that is right.

We have, over the years, dug ourselves a bit of a hole. I blame the NHS and, if it were up to me, I would adopt the American system of private health insurance. We, as a nation, simply cannot afford to run a welfare state and a National Health Service. Since it is impractical to scrap the welfare state, the NHS has to go. It would not only save the country enough money to see us back on a steady course, but it would make people more responsible for their behaviour. Want to cut smoking and drinking and stupidity rates, make people start paying their own health insurance and see how many people like cancer sticks enough to pay £500/month premiums.

Net migration into the UK is very small, if you take out the students who come here but do not settle permanently, that number is almost inconsequential. UKIP make a big noise about foreigners coming here and taking our jobs, but have a look at the Job Centre website and tell me there is a job shortage. A quick search on there right now shows 1815 jobs available within 20 miles of my postcode. Bearing in mind that 40% of that circumference is occupied by the Atlantic Ocean and we start to see that there really are an awful lot of jobs available. The approach being taken presently, under the Points Based System, alongside our obligations under the 1951 Refugee Convention means that only those who will contribute to the UK are being allowed in, alongside those who are here because their own countries are unsafe (predominantly because they are not offered protection under an ECHR/HRA style piece of legislation)

Matt.

[Jerry]

It does when they've not paid into our system and are able to take money out of it to send back to Poland.

Yes, some Poles are hard working but don't for one minute think that applies to a high percentage of them because living near a city where 1/10 are Poles I can tell you they aren't.

I'd like to see proof of your earlier statement that there are more English residents in Spain as well.

Brits living in Spain 761,000 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/i ... europe.stm

Poles in Britain 690,000 http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/wha ... index.html

Out of those 690,000 Poles, only 6,390 of them claim the dole so hardly a "high percentage", in fact far less than the proportion of Brits claiming.

Eastern European immigrants contribute 37% more in tax revenue than they receive in public goods and services (this includes health, education law enforcement etc).

The simple fact is that we would be worse off as a country if they weren't here.

[Southampton Gull]

Those stats are 2 years old.
Claims on the dole? Benefits range much wider than jobseekers allowance. Unusual for you to promote clouded "facts".

[Jerry]

They were the only facts I could find in the 2 minutes I spent investigating the situation! :na:

Yes they are 2 years old but is the situstion likely to have drastically altered in that time? Have Poles suddenly become a lot more workshy for no apparent reason?

Irrespective of whether they claim loads of benefits (no evidence to support this claim that I can find - although again I only spent a couple of minutes looking) surely the fact that they contribute far more to the system than they take out is the point.

[Dave]

The vast majority of Poles in this country are hard workers just trying to support their families like the rest of us. Foreigners make an easy target in times of economic hardship, as has always been the case. Just because someone was born on the other side of a completely arbitrary line on a map doesn't make them less deserving.

Jerry you are so transfixed on the Poles I think you missed the point I was making, it really was quite a simple one, a pole, Indian, african etc can get benefits and social housing, in Spain if a British national does not have a job and can not support themselves they only have one option, which is to go home. My parents spend 6 months of the year living in Spain, life for British and German ex-pats in Spain is no picnic like it is here for many ex-pats of other countries trust me, and thats why many come home very quickly.

I spent 21 years working in Industry and coming up to the last 6 years working in retail, I have worked with Polish, Indian and even african workers, your right they good workers and nice people all of them, but they are in the minority, many come here soley to milk the benefits and welfare system we have, be cause they know they can, many are coming into this country on studant visa's gained through fake college's their are not studying anything, doing a few hours work a week and claiming benefits, simple way to stop it do not give benefits to any foreigners.

Thats not racist, thats protecting our national interests.

[Jerry]

Jerry you are so transfixed on the Poles I think you missed the point I was making, it really was quite a simple one, a pole, Indian, african etc can get benefits and social housing, in Spain if a British national does not have a job and can not support themselves they only have one option, which is to go home. My parents spend 6 months of the year living in Spain, life for British and German ex-pats in Spain is no picnic like it is here for many ex-pats of other countries trust me, and thats why many come home very quickly.

I can trump your 6 month parents as my parents have lived permanently in Spain for many years! :na:

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, it just gets my goat when people generalise (all foreigners are scroungers and should be sent home!), not aiming this at you specifically just the general attitude in this country.

If you have lived and worked in Spain and lose your job you are perfectly entitled to claim unemployment benefit irrespective of where you come from originally. I agree that you shouldn't be able to walk into any country and claim without having contributed first but as long as you have paid into the system then you should be entitled to help if you fall on hard times.

[Dave]

Agreed in return Jerry, if you have paided in to the system of the country you live you should be able to gain help back from the system, however thats the issue for me, there are many coming here, as said student visa's gained through fake colleges and many other ways and means who have paided nothing in but are getting benefits from our country, why are there so many Iraqies and Afgans on the French border desperatly trying to get into the UK and not actually settling in France ? Simple because they know the French will not help them but the soft touch British will.

Also isn't not the case that you have to be a permanently registered as living in Spain to get benefits from the country, if say you went to Spain and got a 6 month summer bar job I believe you can not then stay in Spain claiming benefits after the job has come to an end.

[AustrianAndyGull]

The big issue for me is housing. Fifteen years ago i applied for a council house in Doncaster (brave i know!) and within a year or so i got offered some because then it was based on a waiting list. You put your name down and when it was your turn you would be offered something. Nowadays it is assessed on the 'greatest need' which in essence i haven't got a problem with but all it means is that if i live at my mums house in a 1 bedroom annexe house which isn't ideal but it's a roof and a sofa then priority is given to a family of eastern european imigrants who just suddenly turn up at the doorstep of the housing authorities. As this flow of immigrants looking for housing never ends that means i, a British citizen who has worked for many years and paid into the system is getting overlooked in favour of immigrants just arriving.

This causes resentment and anger all created by the Government and their inability to deal with this situation thus creating a division in society. My housing situation as it stands isn't ideal but i've got a roof and a bedroom but i've basically been told by Derbyshire Dales District Council after 2 years of being on their waiting list that i will never get a house with them primarily due to being just out of the catchment area. How the f*ck is Warsaw closer to Matlock than Chesterfield then?!! How are these people getting these houses in these areas then?!!! I was told to look at the housing on offer for Chesterfield and on their website there are a grand total of 5 houses. Super. All i know is that 10 years ago i hardly ever heard a foreign tongue in my local village or surrounding villages but today there a sh*tloads and my local supermarket has an entire aisle dedicated to eastern european goods. Tesco only want to make money so i'm sure they've done their research and worked out that the population of eastern europeans now in and around my area is so big that they can make money out of them by selling their stuff. Like i said, i haven't got a problem with them coming over and working but where are they all f*cking living?!!!!

[Alpine Joe]

Well done to Matt for taking the time to give such a long and reasonably well thought out assessment of some of UKIPs different policies. I fear he'll get nowhere however, even if he was correct in all his arguments. I don't think that the vast majority of UKIP voters have the slightest interest in whether UKIP are in favour of a 40% increase in defence spending, or about the potential difficulties in administrating a road tax collection system for foreign owned lorries. I get the overwhelming sense that UKIP voters vote the way they do because of their strong desire to achieve United Kingdom Independence.

All they ask of Farage is for him to deliver what it says on the tin. Once that had been achieved THEN they will start differentiating between those parties that have nutty domestic policies and those that have more sensible ones. UKIP are I believe, seen for one purpose only, as the only ones giving people even a glimmer of hope of one day being able to escape the EU. I really don't think the British public are looking beyond that and wondering what 20 years of UKIP Government would do to the country.

Between 1940 and 1945 Winston Churchill was probably the most popular British prime minister of all time. In May 1945 his approval rating in the opinion polls, which had never fallen below 78 per cent, stood at 83 per cent. With few exceptions, politicians and commentators confidently predicted that he would lead the Conservatives to victory at the forthcoming general election.

... it is hard to imagine anyone who could have played the role of national leader with greater success than Churchill ...

In the event, he led them to one of their greatest ever defeats. It was also one for which he was partly responsible, because the very qualities that had made him a great leader in war were ill-suited to domestic politics in peacetime.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... n_01.shtml


I get the feeling that the British public would quite happily do the same again with Farage and UKIP in order to achieve the immediate goal of reclaiming our independence, and once that is achieved, ditch them in favour of others who have more credible domestic policies.


It might also be the case that critics of UKIP who refer to them as loonies, fruit cakes, closet racists etc, only end up only making people dig their heels in deeper.

Ferrarilover

However, this is the same legislation which guarantees that no one here will be tortured by the State, prevents compulsory or forced conscription, prevents detention without trial, prevents the State being quite permitted to arrest anyone, for anything, without redress.

The problem is that there are a lot of Brits, certainly the more elderly ones who were brought up believing we have the 'Mother of Parliaments' , that we gave democracy (and football) to the world, and that we've often been a bastion of freedoms that much of the rest of the world never enjoy. To tell them that they now have to be thankful to the Spanish or the Italians (with there recent history of letting Mussolini or Franco take control of their countries) for stopping the British state from torturing us seems both laughable and insulting.

Yes we do have trouble being grateful to the Europeans, and thanking them for all they're claiming to be doing for us. The old school still thinks mainland Europe made a mess of things and we impoverished our own country and lost the best of a generation in going over there to help put things right and win the war. Yes, we've never liked the French and they've never liked us. Yes, you only need to watch the Eurovision Song Contest once to be eternally grateful we've got the English channel separating us from that collection of nancy boys. I could go on.....but people will start confusing me with AustrianAndy

So in a nutshell people are saying to Mr.Farage: 'We'd like the important decisions that affect Britain to once again be made in Britain, and if you keep fighting for that we'll quite happily ignore your nutty ideas on transport and defence'.

[AustrianAndyGull]

The thing is i voted UKIP but i'm proud to say my ethnic origin is white european and not white british. I'm proud of my european heritage and i couldn't care less about Britain becoming independant or whatever, i just want someone to get into power who isn't afraid of offending people, has common sense policies for the greater good and actually goes about delivering them. Politics really is that simple, work out how much money you have and the best way to spend it in terms of priority and have policies that are generally fair and practical and that most normal people would understand the reasons behind and then go and do it. How hard can it be?

[Dave]

I have not been a voter for any party for a while, last time I did, I voted Labour. I am listening to UKIP, I am hearing what their saying and considering voting for them in the Euro's and next general election.

I seriously doubt UKIP will ever be in goverment, that said, if you told me 10 years ago the Liberals would be in Goverment with the Tories, think I would have laughed at that thought, so never say never they could be of a coalition one day who knows.

Do their figures stack up, have not studied it enough, but UKIP say they would take us out of Europe saving the country £371 million a week, they say they would scrap qango's saving a further £60 million, so there is a good chance their figures might stack up.

Is their transport policy that mad, they would stop the new £40 billion high speed line being built, and upgrade the three main lines already in place, which UKIP say would benefit the many not the few, are they right?

They would cut foriegn aid, already touched on Pakistan were we are going to be sending £446 milion to a country that virtually no one pays tax, UKIP say we send aid to countries that have an aircraft carrier amongst their naval fleet's, the British goverment say we can not afford one. Is that right? NO.

How much did Hamza cost this country, how much is Qatada costing this country , they would both have been gone long ago if UKIP were in power, two men that preach death to innocent British men, women and children, Qatada we still can not remove from our own country.

Juts some reasons why Labour, Liberal and Tory voters alike are warming to UKIP.