Aldershot after losing 0-1 at home last night to Kidderminster have today sacked manager Andy Scott. They have one win in nine despite bringing in many new players on loan, including Ryan Jarvis from York recently. Aldershot are slipping closer to the relegation zone faster than we are.
Whatever is happening off the pitch at the moment CH needs more League points not only for the team's safety but also for his own position.
The warning bell is ringing I suspect.
Another Manager Goes
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AustrianAndyGull
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nickbrod wrote:Aldershot after losing 0-1 at home last night to Kidderminster have today sacked manager Andy Scott. Aldershot are slipping closer to the relegation zone faster than we are.
Whatever is happening off the pitch at the moment CH needs more League points not only for the team's safety but also for his own position.
The warning bell is ringing I suspect.
Probably the reason why he lost his job........... =D
Strangely enough it was Pope Gregory the 9th inviting me for drinks aboard his steam yacht, the saucy sue currently wintering in montego bay with the England cricket team and the Balanese Goddess of plenty.
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Scott Brehaut
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Nope - one was a duplication....taxilady wrote:congratulations to AustrianAndyGull on his 10,000th post !
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Most of Andy's posts are duplications of what he's posted before ........taxilady wrote:that's just mean Scott !
Don't think this is just a warning to Chris Hargreaves. Professional football managers at all levels and clubs are constantly under threat of losing their jobs, Chris Hargreaves would have known that when he took the Torquay job as does any manager, football is the most results driven industry out there, and a fair few managers do not always get enough time to turn results in their favour.
It's about balancing expectations, a lot of our fans are saying we're a mid table team, we're in mid table so what's the problem. The problem for me is, we're not a mid table side at this level with this team, to say otherwise is seriously underestimating the ability of our players, and perhaps an easy, convenient view point to take.
If anyone neutral was to compare our squad to others I'd be very surprised if they didn't put us top eight, and I'd agree, we should with this squad be competing and at least chasing a play-off place to the very end, at the moment we're heading for a very low placed finish uncomfortably close to the bottom four, to be fair already, and thankfully got enough points to avoid another drop, not mathematically of course, but have.
There are 15 games left, there is time for results to improve, but there has to be some honesty, at the moment we're half the globe away from where we should be, maybe not even that close, very convenient to blame those no longer at the club. I'll put it straight, our players are not motivated that is partly down to circumstance, but the manager, has to manage that situation, so the team are mentally prepared to play, and tactically prepared, on that score our manager is failing dismally on all counts.
It's about balancing expectations, a lot of our fans are saying we're a mid table team, we're in mid table so what's the problem. The problem for me is, we're not a mid table side at this level with this team, to say otherwise is seriously underestimating the ability of our players, and perhaps an easy, convenient view point to take.
If anyone neutral was to compare our squad to others I'd be very surprised if they didn't put us top eight, and I'd agree, we should with this squad be competing and at least chasing a play-off place to the very end, at the moment we're heading for a very low placed finish uncomfortably close to the bottom four, to be fair already, and thankfully got enough points to avoid another drop, not mathematically of course, but have.
There are 15 games left, there is time for results to improve, but there has to be some honesty, at the moment we're half the globe away from where we should be, maybe not even that close, very convenient to blame those no longer at the club. I'll put it straight, our players are not motivated that is partly down to circumstance, but the manager, has to manage that situation, so the team are mentally prepared to play, and tactically prepared, on that score our manager is failing dismally on all counts.
Formerly known as forevertufc
"If anyone neutral was to compare our squad to others I'd be very surprised if they didn't put us top eight"
Against what criteria?
Why?
Can any different manager get better results out of 1 set of players, sometimes, not always.
I don't know how many on here still do any sport seriously, not professionally but serious about trying to improve. I do. And I can tell you form is a bloody frustrating thing. I can perform great 1 day, the next day I don't, the conditions etc are the same. Look at some of the best players in the world, Mezil Ozil, on paper should be brilliant, been fairly useless at Arsenal and a kid who was out on loan at Charlton keeping him out. That can scenario can be repeated a thousand times. Same goes with Managers.
Our squad on paper means absolutely nothing. Why is it one season a player looks great or even for a few games, then doesn't, we have seen this time and time again. The CV on any player means nothing, its how they perform "Today" and you never know that. I asked an ex Torquay manager this very question a while ago, he said to me, I looked in their eyes as they walked in on a Saturday morning and I could tell straight away the ones who weren't up for it, but with a small squad you have no choice but play them.
A lot of the success managers have is down to luck. Luck that they take over a set of players who have got some potential AND want to do something about it. Luck with injuries, the luck that at least 1 of the 3 almost open goals against Altrincham went in. Luck that at the time of taking over the club has some financial strength. I could go on. There could be some managers out there who MIGHT be able to get another 10% out of this current set, BUT none of you on here or anyone else would know who they are. Its a lottery. Ling had a strategy to get 1-0's in season 1, he faded, and to be honest was slagged off on here for dire football, so that wasn't good enough.
How many managers at this level, have CV's that are a total success, none, because they wont be at this level if they do have.
Looking forward to some healthy disagreement on this post
Against what criteria?
Why?
Can any different manager get better results out of 1 set of players, sometimes, not always.
I don't know how many on here still do any sport seriously, not professionally but serious about trying to improve. I do. And I can tell you form is a bloody frustrating thing. I can perform great 1 day, the next day I don't, the conditions etc are the same. Look at some of the best players in the world, Mezil Ozil, on paper should be brilliant, been fairly useless at Arsenal and a kid who was out on loan at Charlton keeping him out. That can scenario can be repeated a thousand times. Same goes with Managers.
Our squad on paper means absolutely nothing. Why is it one season a player looks great or even for a few games, then doesn't, we have seen this time and time again. The CV on any player means nothing, its how they perform "Today" and you never know that. I asked an ex Torquay manager this very question a while ago, he said to me, I looked in their eyes as they walked in on a Saturday morning and I could tell straight away the ones who weren't up for it, but with a small squad you have no choice but play them.
A lot of the success managers have is down to luck. Luck that they take over a set of players who have got some potential AND want to do something about it. Luck with injuries, the luck that at least 1 of the 3 almost open goals against Altrincham went in. Luck that at the time of taking over the club has some financial strength. I could go on. There could be some managers out there who MIGHT be able to get another 10% out of this current set, BUT none of you on here or anyone else would know who they are. Its a lottery. Ling had a strategy to get 1-0's in season 1, he faded, and to be honest was slagged off on here for dire football, so that wasn't good enough.
How many managers at this level, have CV's that are a total success, none, because they wont be at this level if they do have.
Looking forward to some healthy disagreement on this post
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I thought this was a good article about "Managers losing a dressing room"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30900505
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30900505
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AustrianAndyGull
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You'll be looking a long time son, hardly anyone posts on this site anymore.Neal wrote:"If anyone neutral was to compare our squad to others I'd be very surprised if they didn't put us top eight"
Against what criteria?
Why?
Can any different manager get better results out of 1 set of players, sometimes, not always.
I don't know how many on here still do any sport seriously, not professionally but serious about trying to improve. I do. And I can tell you form is a bloody frustrating thing. I can perform great 1 day, the next day I don't, the conditions etc are the same. Look at some of the best players in the world, Mezil Ozil, on paper should be brilliant, been fairly useless at Arsenal and a kid who was out on loan at Charlton keeping him out. That can scenario can be repeated a thousand times. Same goes with Managers.
Our squad on paper means absolutely nothing. Why is it one season a player looks great or even for a few games, then doesn't, we have seen this time and time again. The CV on any player means nothing, its how they perform "Today" and you never know that. I asked an ex Torquay manager this very question a while ago, he said to me, I looked in their eyes as they walked in on a Saturday morning and I could tell straight away the ones who weren't up for it, but with a small squad you have no choice but play them.
A lot of the success managers have is down to luck. Luck that they take over a set of players who have got some potential AND want to do something about it. Luck with injuries, the luck that at least 1 of the 3 almost open goals against Altrincham went in. Luck that at the time of taking over the club has some financial strength. I could go on. There could be some managers out there who MIGHT be able to get another 10% out of this current set, BUT none of you on here or anyone else would know who they are. Its a lottery. Ling had a strategy to get 1-0's in season 1, he faded, and to be honest was slagged off on here for dire football, so that wasn't good enough.
How many managers at this level, have CV's that are a total success, none, because they wont be at this level if they do have.
Interesting post though Neal, always a good read yours - open and honest.
If i may comment on the first point you raise about Mesut Ozil and 'form'.
You will always get players who perform for one club and not another or perform for their club and then suddenly start struggling and failing to replicate that form again. I think that so long as a player continues to do the things he has belief in then eventually he will find the right fit. For example, Fernando Torres. I've watched him a few times now he is back at Atletico and he looks reborn. Maybe a combination of feeling secure AND naturally being able to fit into the way they play. At Chelsea he looked totally out of place and always struggled but i think it was because of their style of play. Just didn't suit him.
How can a player go from starring for Spain, Atletico Madrid and then Liverpool to being shite overnight? The answer is he can't. He was never shite, just a particular club at a particular time didn't play to his strengths and his confidence drained. As someone who suffers from social anxiety and a lack of confidence i cannot begin to describe the feeling you get when occasionally some confidence is discovered within oneself. It's like you are a different person. That transfers into your life as it transfers onto the football pitch if you are a footballer.
As for managers. I don't think this applies. When you are a player on the pitch playing with confidence you will automatically make passes, take shots and so on without even thinking about it because you are 'in the moment' and reacting to impulses as they happen. If you are confident these impulsive reactions to pass, shoot or whatever often turn out to be the right decisions even though one hasn't even thought about them. They are instinctive.
As a manager i feel that before a game it's all about research. Learn about the opposition and how they are going to play, learn about their danger men and how you will combat them and learn about their key strengths whether that be set pieces or hitting on the break. Don't place too much emphasis on this though, just have your team aware and well drilled and competitive.
But it's during the game where plaudits are earned and i believe it's now called 'game management'. In actual fact i think that making decisions in-game is a piece of piss. Just use your noggin and you won't go joggin'. Make common sense substitutions. For example (and not exclusive in CH's reign) take York v Torquay last season where Torquay lost 1-0. I was there. York were shit, Torquay were slightly shitter but not a lot in it. York 1-0 up going into the last 30 with the game petering out. If i were in charge i'd have just gone for broke and stuck forwards on and shouted my knackers off for them to get forward and put them under pressure. If they had have broken away and won 2 or 3 nil then so be it. Torquay would have lost anyway as they were already 1-0 down. What was the **** point in being conservative and trying to look studious?
This is my bug bear with managers and a trend that CH set that made me believe he is nowhere near competent enough to manage a football club. It's called common sense with a twinge of desire. One for Coronation Street viewers here, if you were in a minibus crash and the bus was precariously hanging off a mountain top then upon waking from unconciousness would you take it easy as you feel a bit poorly and sit tight which would mean going down with the minibus or would you take action to get yourself out of the bus. If you failed you die but there might be a chance by taking positive action that you escape the minibus and get to safety.
This is the perfect analogy for that night at York and for the whole of TUFC's league 2 season under him. Torquay failed because of Knill but also because CH failed to take risks when risks became the only viable solution to survival. This was because of fear. Fear of failure. Any manager who has a fear of failure is in the wrong job.
The story you tell about the manager having no choice but to play a player despite gut feeling that they ain't up for it i don't subscribe to. If a player is not up for it then they get dropped. If it's a youth trainee that replaces them then so be it. If HE fails then it's the manager that gets it in the neck. Fine, explain why you chose X player instead of Y and have some faith. Or you could do what CH has done this season and play it safe by opting for players that got us relegated just because they 'are experienced'. Give me 'inexperienced but willing to shit blood' over 'experienced but don't give two shits' anyday. So you DO have a choice whether to play them or not, it all depends on whether you are prepared to elicit change by sticking your neck out and making the changes or whether you favour self preservation.
Self preservation always sees the cowards revealed in the end and always results in the sack anyway. Just that the individual gets a bit more time to deceive the fans, rip off the club and recoup a bit of cash before they get found out.
It is the lack of common sense and inability to see the obvious which will see CH end up owning a restaurant on the coast somewhere and not become a professional football manager.
As for luck. No such thing as luck. If i win the lottery tonight is that luck? I'd like to think that it was because my 6 numbers came out and nobody elses did and that is why i won. Is that luck or the fact that 6 numbers HAD to be drawn and i happened to have all 6. I find £20 on the street. It will be found eventually but because I found it is it luck? Or is it because it happened to be in my line of sight as i was walking down the street? Is that luck or eventuality?
No manager gets luck.
Ling failed ultimately although he was damn bloody close to the perfect formula for success in lower league football. He set his team out to be hard to beat and a well drilled team with a smattering of really, really good players got to the play offs. I hardly ever enjoyed a Ling side play although i did enjoy the results and i guess that is the crux. Would you happily pay good money and travel the UK to watch a team try and defend for 90 minutes and hopefully nick one on the break? Be completely starved of entertainment after a 4 hour drive up to Rochdale but a deflected corner meant a 1-0 win? I wasn't happy with this and although i didn't want Real Madrid, i still wanted us to pose some sort of sustained attacking threat now and then.
Ling lost fans despite relative success because the style of football, not now and again but nearly EVERY WEEK was predictable negativity. It got too much and Ling refused to modify this to adopt a slightly more adventurous approach. Make no mistakes, after Buckle, Ling's style eventually became comatose. We'd go away and literally HAVE to score with our only real attempt at goal or we'd come away with nowt. Ling experienced some health issues and parted company but he thought a particular system worked and when it began failing he lack the flexibility to change and in actual fact he failed to identify that he had been found out. I don't know if his illness made this more difficult and i wouldn't like to guess but that is what happened.
Ling had talent but common sense failed him and obviously he was ill too so mitigating circumstances. He became stubborn and inflexible and when a specific tactic became ineffective these were 2 traits that weren't going to help change things.
Knill, Knill was simply a complete buffoon and i do feel guilty a little for using such vulgar terminology but the fact is he was. He was slightly ahead in the buffoonery stakes of all the people who 3 months in weren't even remotely concerned about his management. It was pretty obvious, as it was 3 or 4 games in to CH's tenure, that he didn't really have any idea whatsoever what he was doing and prolonging this idiots stay at TUFC just made it more difficult for the new man to turn things around. That new man was CH therefore timing didn't really matter in the end.
Knill has no mitigating circumstances. He was just bizarrely clueless and there is not one particular management fault you can pick up on that he could be addressing. He was just so dim all ends up that i can't even begin to comprehend what went on in his head.
Managers earn respect not just for results but for how they conduct themselves and the manner in which they manage the team. If they seem totally clueless over a period of time then it most probably is because in actual fact they are. That is why CH needs to go as soon as possible.
Torquay player legend but no managerial common sense.
Common sense is innate so if it's not there then you're going nowhere.
Last edited by AustrianAndyGull on 22 Jan 2015, 10:12, edited 6 times in total.
Strangely enough it was Pope Gregory the 9th inviting me for drinks aboard his steam yacht, the saucy sue currently wintering in montego bay with the England cricket team and the Balanese Goddess of plenty.
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Popside Joe
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Luck has no part in football management. Even if it is a factor in deciding games, it never reflects well on a manager to blame luck for a result. It implies the result is out of his hands, which to some small extent it is, but he is the one we all look to to take responsibility for results. It is his job. If luck has played a part in deciding a result, he needs to look at why it came down to that. What more he could have done. How he could have got more out of those players. Especially those who looked like they weren't up to it. Even more so if he could look in their eyes and see they weren't up for it. Focus on changing that, not on luck or other people. Alright, perhaps if off field events are conspiring against him to such an extent it makes his job difficult, he can blame external factors, but to put the fate of a game in the hands of fortune on the field, pah.
Brian Clough said luck has no part in it. He was right about that.
Brian Clough said luck has no part in it. He was right about that.
I don't totally disagree with every you've said, but will with respond my opinion. Against What criteria and why ? For two main reasons, player budgets, even if all the so called high earners had been transferred out Chris Hargreaves would have had a top eight budget to spend on a team, yes money does not guarantee success, but a neutral would look at it and say Torquay should finish well above Dover, Braintree, Altrincham etc, because these clubs do not have a 3rd of the money to spend on their respective squads that Torquay does even with a reduced budget at Torquay.Neal wrote:"If anyone neutral was to compare our squad to others I'd be very surprised if they didn't put us top eight"
Against what criteria?
Why?
Can any different manager get better results out of 1 set of players, sometimes, not always.
Our squad on paper means absolutely nothing. The CV on any player means nothing, its how they perform "Today" and you never know that. I asked an ex Torquay manager this very question a while ago, he said to me, I looked in their eyes as they walked in on a Saturday morning and I could tell straight away the ones who weren't up for it, but with a small squad you have no choice but play them.
A lot of the success managers have is down to luck. . Ling had a strategy to get 1-0's in season 1, he faded, and to be honest was slagged off on here for dire football, so that wasn't good enough.
How many managers at this level, have CV's that are a total success, none, because they wont be at this level if they do have.
Looking forward to some healthy disagreement on this post
Agreed it is about how a player players today, but a players CV is very relevant and does mean something. If I went for a job in engineering I wouldn't expect the person interviewing me to say, according to your CV you've never worked in this trade before, but that doesn't matter your past CV doesn't mean anything.
If your looking at two squads, squad A is half full of players time served in League's 1 and 2 with a bit of Championship experience in it, as our does, squad B is half full of players that have never played in the conference premier before as many we've lost to this season don't. Also factor in, squad A is full time see TUFC , squad B see Atly, Dover, Woking, Fc Halifax, you'd expect Squad A to be physically and tactically fitter, as Squad A trains 4 times a week and squad B train 2 times a week, and then can all their players get the time off to attend. So a neutral would look at us and put our squad top eight.
Can any different manager get better results out of 1 set of players, sometimes, not always.How many managers at this level, have CV's that are a total success, none, because they wont be at this level if they do have.
Yes managers can change the fortunes of teams with the same set of players, Tony Pullis at Crystal Palace just last season, Cyril Knowles took over at Torquay after 1987 and the police dog, I'm struggling with my memory here, can not remember making that many new signings if any, and what happened the following season, could point to many other cases. On the second point, I invite you to look at the CV of Martin Allen, Alan Devonshire and Gary Hill, that is just to name a few.
A lot of the success managers have is down to luck. . Ling had a strategy to get 1-0's in season 1 Incorrect on both counts in my view; are you saying the success of Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley, Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho, and many, many others, is all down to luck, luck can help from time to time, but jeez these names and others must be the luckiest to ever walk the earth.
Martin Ling did not have a strategy to achieve 1.0 wins, no manager in the history of football has such a strategy, Martin Ling's strategy was to set up the team mentally and tactically to be hard to beat, we achieved so many 1.0 wins that season, because of Bobby.O and some great defending, attacking play inspired by Eunan O'Kane and the odd moment of brilliance.
Formerly known as forevertufc
Yes its a shame the forum has become just a few of us, will start a thread on why that might be I think.
Im going to continue to argue my point, not because Im stubborn by the way but I do believe Luck does have a part to play and I will explain why.
To have a successful season requires many factors to fall into place all at the same time. Not in order of priority.
If you have just taken over a managers position at a new club:
There is a good organisation behind the scenes when you take over.
You develop a working relationship / trust with the owner
Your lucky that you keep free of injuries, especially to key players
Your lucky in that during your management there are no behind the scenes major financial problems
Your lucky during the season you miss playing the teams who are on fire at that point.
You need a plan B if plan A doesn't work
You have a group of players who all mentally want success. This is very hard for anybody even a football manager to change because as we know, and weve seen it many times some players are content with going through the motions. When you have severe financial constraints at a club like Torquay you have few options to change this.
You manage to attract a group of players within budget who actually get on, and compliment each other on the pitch. This isn't as easy as it sounds either, people fall out VERY easily! As I would imagine many of you have experienced in your lives.
The argument about Ferguson, Wenger etc etc, mmmmmm.... a lot of their success is down to the massive amount of money they have. Arsenal fans have not been over happy with Wenger recently. All that money and 1 trophy in 9 years, IS THAT SUCCESS?
In my opinion its more down to form (which includes confidence, risk taking etc) of each individual player. The difference between success and failure even at Conf level is small, really small. If 1 of those 3 EASY chances had gone in against Altrincham then the game would have been different. It is a team game, I know, and its the managers job to try and mould the group of players he has to form a successful unit. BUT for a squad like Torquays (some inherited and not good enough) its difficult. Wenger can just splash the cash CH cannot. I know we have the likes of Dover et al doing better than us, and yes it might be down to poor team management, it might, but even if you are the best, you still need most of those factors falling into place to be successful.
Apologies if I didn't address every point from the last posts.
Im going to continue to argue my point, not because Im stubborn by the way but I do believe Luck does have a part to play and I will explain why.
To have a successful season requires many factors to fall into place all at the same time. Not in order of priority.
If you have just taken over a managers position at a new club:
There is a good organisation behind the scenes when you take over.
You develop a working relationship / trust with the owner
Your lucky that you keep free of injuries, especially to key players
Your lucky in that during your management there are no behind the scenes major financial problems
Your lucky during the season you miss playing the teams who are on fire at that point.
You need a plan B if plan A doesn't work
You have a group of players who all mentally want success. This is very hard for anybody even a football manager to change because as we know, and weve seen it many times some players are content with going through the motions. When you have severe financial constraints at a club like Torquay you have few options to change this.
You manage to attract a group of players within budget who actually get on, and compliment each other on the pitch. This isn't as easy as it sounds either, people fall out VERY easily! As I would imagine many of you have experienced in your lives.
The argument about Ferguson, Wenger etc etc, mmmmmm.... a lot of their success is down to the massive amount of money they have. Arsenal fans have not been over happy with Wenger recently. All that money and 1 trophy in 9 years, IS THAT SUCCESS?
In my opinion its more down to form (which includes confidence, risk taking etc) of each individual player. The difference between success and failure even at Conf level is small, really small. If 1 of those 3 EASY chances had gone in against Altrincham then the game would have been different. It is a team game, I know, and its the managers job to try and mould the group of players he has to form a successful unit. BUT for a squad like Torquays (some inherited and not good enough) its difficult. Wenger can just splash the cash CH cannot. I know we have the likes of Dover et al doing better than us, and yes it might be down to poor team management, it might, but even if you are the best, you still need most of those factors falling into place to be successful.
Apologies if I didn't address every point from the last posts.
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