The European Union: We're out...!!!

Rivals banter, other footie/sport and general chat.

The European Union: In or Out?

Poll ended at 07 Aug 2016, 15:29

1. The UK should stay in the EU.
100
30%
2. The UK should leave the EU.
235
70%
 
Total votes: 335


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

The European Union: We're out...!!!

Post by merse btpir » 30 Jul 2017, 18:54

More unsubstantiated generalising from the tennis shirted one; opinion from one side of the political fence is bias but not the other in his world.

More generalising of Dianne Abbott but no proof provided ~ put it up man!

I could well imagine a large majority amongst the Asian diaspora to be pro 'Brexit' in favour of furthering immigration opportunities for their own ethnicity............that's the sort self interest I was referring to. As UK citizens they are perfectly entitled to that opinion and to exercise it; but I don't recall Enoch Powell being so enthusiastic about the Midland Asians in his day do you and significant number of them or their parents were more than happy to come here and gain asylum from Idi Amin who got pissed off with that attitude in Uganda weren't they!

Anyway; it is not about 'race cards' where teachers or lecturers live or whatever it is about whether or not Fred and his like thinkers believe they are getting what they believed they would when they voted 'Leave'.


dannyrvtufc4life
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2463
Joined: 05 Sep 2010, 15:20
Favourite player: ??
Location: Woodland Park, CO, USA
Contact:

Post by dannyrvtufc4life » 30 Jul 2017, 19:00

merse btpir wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 22:33
dannyrvtufc4life wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 01:53
I am a Trump fan, he was a much better option than Hilary Clinton. No doubt I will be abused for that, but I don't care. No President has ever had so much flak. He is a strong, no nonsense, straight talking President who is very popular here in the US. As I agree with the Republican platform more than I do the Democrat, I have decided to get involved in Politics here.
It really does beggar all belief and if you want to make a career in politics young man; you want to set your standards way above this twitter bate that Trump has desecrated the office of President of the United States with.......it's an absolute disgrace!

I don't mind a debate, but don't try and patronise me.
General ramblings, always loquacious on a prodigious amount of different subject matters.
https://dannyharveyblog.wordpress.com/


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 30 Jul 2017, 20:34

You're too think skinned for real political cut and thrust then! :rofl:


dannyrvtufc4life
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2463
Joined: 05 Sep 2010, 15:20
Favourite player: ??
Location: Woodland Park, CO, USA
Contact:

Post by dannyrvtufc4life » 30 Jul 2017, 21:54

merse btpir wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 20:34
You're too think skinned for real political cut and thrust then! :rofl:

No, I just don't need the "you can contribute with the adults if you want young man" rhetoric. I am quite okay with being treated as a normal adult like everyone else, despite being 20.
General ramblings, always loquacious on a prodigious amount of different subject matters.
https://dannyharveyblog.wordpress.com/


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 30 Jul 2017, 22:01

Thanks Danny; you read into it what you choose.....big mistake in politics to give away how to get under your skin


Fred Perry
On the Bench
On the Bench
Posts: 80
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 13:30
Favourite player: Goalkeeper

Post by Fred Perry » 30 Jul 2017, 22:52

Some people say Angela Merkel is having a "guilt conscience " on what happened in World War 2 / World War 1.

It is good , to see the error of your ways , but her and Tony Blair do not see their consequence of their actions i.e. a free for all , where many in the EU are drawn to the likes of the UK and Germany , not realising many of us already living in these countries are trying to better ourselves , but do not have degrees and do not speak several languages, to enable us to do this.

Yes , we could try and go to Uni , but this is not always possible.

In other words , thrown onto the lower salaried job "scrapheap " , for some of us.

Many employers are now looking for degrees and where they see another language , a distinct advantage.

The UK needs to find a " balance " , where not all and sundry can come from the EU !...


Orange Gull
Team Captain
Team Captain
Posts: 562
Joined: 21 Feb 2015, 15:14
Location: Amsterdam

Post by Orange Gull » 30 Jul 2017, 23:08

Fred Perry wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 22:52
Some people say Angela Merkel is having a "guilt conscience " on what happened in World War 2 / World War 1.

It is good , to see the error of your ways , but her and Tony Blair do not see their consequence of their actions i.e. a free for all , where many in the EU are drawn to the likes of the UK and Germany , not realising many of us already living in these countries are trying to better ourselves , but do not have degrees and do not speak several languages, to enable us to do this.

Yes , we could try and go to Uni , but this is not always possible.

In other words , thrown onto the lower salaried job "scrapheap " , for some of us.

Many employers are now looking for degrees and where they see another language , a distinct advantage.

The UK needs to find a " balance " , where not all and sundry can come from the EU !...
I've read this post a few times but I still don't have a clue what your point is.


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 30 Jul 2017, 23:38

Orange Gull wrote:
30 Jul 2017, 23:08
I've read this post a few times but I still don't have a clue what your point is.
That out of his mono-lingual comfort zone; he cannot contribute or participate?

Maybe he will speak English to the French using a faux French accent? or Germans have to tolerate his English to them using a fake German accent.......maybe he will shout when they give him a look of puzzlement.

I very much doubt that Angela Merkel is having a "guilt conscience " ~ she has nothing to have any guilt conscience over does she?

I must confess when I first met my ex (who can converse in seven languages) and tried to speak to her in her first language, French; she told me to stop talking rubbish and use English.

For all that we are; us English can show a shocking inability/disinterest in integrating with our neighbours and engaging with them in a sincere and well intentioned manner.

Why does the lingua franca always have to be English for them?


forevertufc
Friend of TorquayFans.com
Friend of TorquayFans.com
Posts: 6732
Joined: 05 Sep 2010, 07:57
Location: Newton abbot

Post by forevertufc » 01 Aug 2017, 21:50

More of what the mainstream media don't want to many British people knowing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/opin ... -news.html

Whilst the IMF seems to have changed it's tune also.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... for-the-i/

Project fear have a new one also. British Gas price rise due to Brexit, what level's will their desperation sink too. Now using blatant profiteering to support their cause.


Fred Perry
On the Bench
On the Bench
Posts: 80
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 13:30
Favourite player: Goalkeeper

Post by Fred Perry » 02 Aug 2017, 11:32

British Gas are clearly stating you can " switch " to another fuel provider .

There are plenty of " new kids " on the block , normally CHEAPER e.g. Octopus, OVO.

You can partially blame the EU , for driving down wages, for many ( not all of us ).

Those coming from poorer EU countries , will often accept lower income , because they are receiving more , than the likes of Romania , Poland etc.

In addition ex pats ( often different families ) from another Country, will be more likely , to live together in one property , thus making their overheads lower.


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 02 Aug 2017, 12:00

Fred Perry wrote:
02 Aug 2017, 11:32
Those coming from poorer EU countries , will often accept lower income , because they are receiving more , than the likes of Romania , Poland etc. In addition ex pats ( often different families ) from another Country, will be more likely , to live together in one property , thus making their overheads lower.
I know you will protest your innocence but this racist based innuendo and diatribe is both tiresome and discredited. The same could be said of 'migrants' of Devonians who went to London in search of work that paid over and above the peasant levels that were available in the area when I was a teenager.

Believe me I worked for a lower wage than was the norm at my first London employer to gain a foot hold and subsequently lived in conditions such as you describe; and it was the same in reverse in Torbay with many summer migrants/seasonal workers coming down from Liverpool and Glasgow packed into tiny bedsits. The same story could be told of Jersey, Bournemouth and Brighton with the summer workers being disparaged by the incumbent locals.

Being exploited by cheap jack - two bob employers with no scruples is nothing to do with where the employee comes from but everything to do with cynicism and exploitation ~ a Tory would call it 'Market Forces' ~ and stupid rhetoric such as yours only goes to further exacerbate the problem.

For feck's sake man; half the jobs the Asians who came to the UK and undertook weren't being done by those already here anyway and much the same has been the case ever since...........why do you think the National Health Service, London Transport, Joe Lyons and other major employees set up direct recruitment in the Caribbean after the Second World War; why do you think companies like Stagecoach directly recruited in Poland fifteen years ago? I once had a job accompanying English speaking Poles, Czechs and Lithanians in their first weeks of work to enable then to come to terms with the local accents and phraseology they had to encounter along their bus routes!


S4fedr1ve
First Team
First Team
Posts: 110
Joined: 16 Sep 2015, 20:29
Favourite player: Andy Donnelly

Post by S4fedr1ve » 02 Aug 2017, 16:50

merse btpir wrote:
02 Aug 2017, 12:00
Fred Perry wrote:
02 Aug 2017, 11:32
Those coming from poorer EU countries , will often accept lower income , because they are receiving more , than the likes of Romania , Poland etc. In addition ex pats ( often different families ) from another Country, will be more likely , to live together in one property , thus making their overheads lower.
I know you will protest your innocence but this racist based innuendo and diatribe is both tiresome and discredited. The same could be said of 'migrants' of Devonians who went to London in search of work that paid over and above the peasant levels that were available in the area when I was a teenager.

Believe me I worked for a lower wage than was the norm at my first London employer to gain a foot hold and subsequently lived in conditions such as you describe; and it was the same in reverse in Torbay with many summer migrants/seasonal workers coming down from Liverpool and Glasgow packed into tiny bedsits. The same story could be told of Jersey, Bournemouth and Brighton with the summer workers being disparaged by the incumbent locals.

Being exploited by cheap jack - two bob employers with no scruples is nothing to do with where the employee comes from but everything to do with cynicism and exploitation ~ a Tory would call it 'Market Forces' ~ and stupid rhetoric such as yours only goes to further exacerbate the problem.

For feck's sake man; half the jobs the Asians who came to the UK and undertook weren't being done by those already here anyway and much the same has been the case ever since...........why do you think the National Health Service, London Transport, Joe Lyons and other major employees set up direct recruitment in the Caribbean after the Second World War; why do you think companies like Stagecoach directly recruited in Poland fifteen years ago? I once had a job accompanying English speaking Poles, Czechs and Lithanians in their first weeks of work to enable then to come to terms with the local accents and phraseology they had to encounter along their bus routes!
:goodpost:


Fred Perry
On the Bench
On the Bench
Posts: 80
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 13:30
Favourite player: Goalkeeper

Post by Fred Perry » 02 Aug 2017, 19:52

Remoaners " Remainers ":

Around 7/10 people in the UK wanted proper control of Migration into the UK - the internet will confirm these stastics.

The EU is " flawed " - 28 ( becoming 27 ? ) , with VARIED economies.

How can you possibly plan effectively on infrastructure, housing , schools etc etc - with uncontrolled, open borders into the UK, you wouldn't know how many people would come !...

Chaos would pursue.

I ACCEPT countries with a " points scoring " system e.g. Australia.

Remainers should ACCEPT change also.

If you read the likes of the Daily Mirror and The Guardian , you could find this more challenging.

If you work in cultures of our NHS and Education, you could find this EQUALLY challenging - these employers tend to influence their employees with EU propaganda , rather than lust the negative effect the EU can have on the UK.


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 02 Aug 2017, 21:19

Yes Fred......... :cool:

By the way I am old enough to remember being served at table in Lyons Corner House, Piccadilly by uniformed waitresses, known as 'Nippies'.............this practice ceased soon after as horny young scrotes like me got the wrong idea and thought they were there to breast feed you!


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 02 Aug 2017, 21:55

merse btpir wrote:
02 Aug 2017, 12:00
...........why do you think the National Health Service, London Transport, Joe Lyons and other major employees set up direct recruitment in the Caribbean after the Second World War?
A little bit (well quite a bit actually) of education for you and the '7/10 people in the UK who want proper control of Migration into the UK' Fred......

N.B that the UK joined the European Union on 1st November 1993 when the Treaty on European Union (otherwise known as the Treaty of Maastricht) came into force. No country could have joined before November 1993 as the European Union did not exist till the Treaty on European Union came into force.

Using references derived from:
THE CARIBBEAN IN EUROPE: CONTRASTING PATTERNS OF MIGRATION AND SETTLEMENT IN BRITAIN, FRANCE AND THE NETHERLANDS
by
Ceri Peach
Research Paper in Ethnic Relations No.15
Centre for Research in Ethnic Relations October 1991 University of Warwick Coventry CV4 7AL


West Indian migration to Britain effectively started in 1948, (although it has much longer antecedents) peaked in the early 1960s and was effectively over by 1973. By this time, the population had reached about 550,000 . Migration to France and to the Netherlands started ten to fifteen years later than from the British Caribbean. In France, the Caribbean-born population in the early 1950s (about 15,000) was similar to that in Britain and although it doubled during the 1950s and 1960s it was not until the 1970s that the major expansion in net migration took place. By the census of 1982, the Caribbean population in France was estimated at 266,000. The migration to the Netherlands began in the early 1960s when the British movement was at its height, peaked in 1975, when the movement to Britain had ceased and decreased in the 1980s although some family reunion has continued since then. By 1988, the Caribbean population of the Netherlands was estimated at 308,000.

The processes of migration affecting the three different groups are surprisingly different. The movement to Britain was characterised by free market labour economics; that to France by paternalistic government sponsorship and that to the Netherlands by politically motivated flight. This is not to say that sponsorship played no part in the migration from the British Caribbean nor that demand for labour played no part in the state sponsorship of migration from Martinique, and Guadeloupe or in the movement from Surinam. Nor is it to say that political considerations were not of critical importance in determining the peak of Caribbean migration to Britain, just as they were later to determine the peak of Surinam migration. Nevertheless, the generalisation holds true and the critical determinants of migration were very different in the British Dutch and French cases.

Caribbean migration to Britain was essentially powered by free market labour forces, but it had its origins in government sponsored war time recruitment. Post war direct recruitment by British Rail, London Transport and the National Health Service, although not numerically dominant, were important in shaping the movement. In Barbados, for example, the island most affected by direct recruitment, just under a quarter of the emigrants in 1960, left on sponsorship schemes. However, these schemes were introduced after the migration had got under way. Family and island social networks were by far the most important channel of diffusing information and arranging initial footholds in Britain.

Of major significance for the history of Caribbean settlement, was Britain's active recruitment of labour in the Caribbean to help the war effort: 8,000 men were recruited to serve in the RAF. Patterson refers to 7,000 Jamaicans serving overseas in the armed forces while smaller numbers volunteered from other parts of the Caribbean . Foresters were recruited in British Honduras (now Belize) to work in Scottish forests and workers were also recruited to work in the munitions industry. In all, 345 men arrived in Britain under the latter scheme, which was wound up in 1946.

However, the post war movement in earnest from the former British West Indies to Britain is often dated to the arrival of 417 Jamaicans on the 'Empire Windrush' in 1948 or to the arrival of 100 Jamaicans on the 'Ormonde' a year earlier. By the time of the 1951 census there were about 17,000 persons born in the Caribbean living in Britain. During the 1950s and early 1960s net West Indian immigration tracked the demand for labour in Britain, with perhaps a three month lag . The threat of legislation to curb immigration by British passport holders, who often had no citizenship other than that of the United Kingdom and Colonies, had the paradoxical effect of increasing immigration in a rush to beat the ban. However, it seems to have restricted the movement to Britain without drying up the supply of migrants. After 1962, net immigration to Britain decreased considerably, but liberalisation of the US and Canadian immigration legislation led to renewed migration, particularly of skilled workers.

Jamaica was the earliest affected by emigration. In 1948, 547 Jamaicans emigrated to Britain. By 1951 when about 1,000 West Indians migrated, only about 100 of them were not from Jamaica. Migration from Barbados was already well established by 1955 when 2,754 people left but for the smaller islands it was just becoming established. Migration from the Leewards seems to have been going in earnest by 1955 and movement from the Windwards by 1956. Trinidad also seems to have moved to large scale emigration in 1956 while Guyana did not get into its stride until 1960. Belize was hardly affected by the movement and in 1981 there were only 1,043 persons born in Belize in Britain out of a Caribbean total of 295,179 (OPCS, 1983, Census 1981, Country of birth, Great Britain, Table 1).

Illustrating the speed with which the movement gathered momentum in Montserrat in the Leewards, Philpott reports (1977, 95) that in 1952 only 6 Montserratians applied for passports to go to Britain, but that numbers increased substantially the following year when an Italian line began calling at the island on the return run from South America. In 1955, 1,145 Montserratians applied for passports. A Spanish line began to call as the migration mounted and in 1956 the construction of an airstrip made air connections with Britain possible. Between 1955 and 1961 3,835 Montserratians arrived in Britain (Peach, 1968, 107) out of a 1960 Montserrat census population of 12,167.

Direct recruitment of labour by British agencies post - dates the beginning of the serious emigration. The Barbadian government set up a sponsorship scheme in 1955 under which British Transport Commission, the London Transport Executive, the British Hotels and Restaurants Association, and the Regional Hospital Boards received workers. London Transport Executive sent a direct recruiting team to Barbados in 1956 and by 1958 it had recruited almost 1,000 workers. By the end of 1961 it had recruited over 2,000 Barbadians.. Between 1955 and 1960, the Barbadian government scheme had sponsored 3,680 workers of whom 40 per cent went to the London Transport Executive. The main conclusion to draw from this is that directly recruited or sponsored labour was an important but minority element in the migratory flow affecting people only from Barbados. In Jamaica, the government tried, if anything, to restrict the flow. It is also important to note that direct recruitment came into play after the migratory streams had been established. The movement to Britain acted as a 'replacement population', moving to gaps left by the upward mobility of the white population. Migration sustained significant parts of the service industries in Britain, in hospitals and transport and industrially it was concentrated in some of the least dynamic industries. Since the radical analysts of migration stress the dependence of the capitalist system on the inputs of raw labour, it is worth noting that it was the flagging social services and the weaker parts of the industrial economy which used migration as a prop.

The migration cycle from the Caribbean to Britain effectively began in 1948 and was over by 1973 . Net immigration from the West Indies to Britain for the period 1955 to 1974 was highly and significantly inversely related to unemployment rates in Britain. The Home Office ceased keeping embarkation figures after 1974, so that the sharp reduction in net immigration cannot be monitored as clearly as one would hope. However, an alternative, though not entirely satisfactory measure of gross immigration, gross emigration and net inflow is available in the International Passenger Survey (IPS). Figures 2 and 3 show that both the Home Office data and the IPS figures show a clear inverse relationship between unemployment and net immigration from the West Indies.

What I am illustrating to you is that the UK has and will forever be depended on immigration to fulfil it's labour force requirements. That they have more latterly come from within the EU is as much a result of a lessening of immigrants from what has been the British Commonwealth through the attractions of Caribbeans and Asians going to the USA and Canada as it is to immigration not being needed........if you doubt me try taking stock of the profiles of the transport infrastructure and the hospital workers to utilise just two aspects of the need for immigration.


Your UKIP inspired waffle about 'being in control of immigration' is just that and nothing to do with whether or not the UK would be better off leaving the EU.

Post Reply