The European Union: We're out...!!!

Rivals banter, other footie/sport and general chat.

The European Union: In or Out?

Poll ended at 07 Aug 2016, 15:29

1. The UK should stay in the EU.
100
30%
2. The UK should leave the EU.
235
70%
 
Total votes: 335

User avatar

Southampton Gull
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6883
Joined: 05 Sep 2010, 01:35
Favourite player: Brett Williams
Location: Southampton

The European Union: We're out...!!!

Post by Southampton Gull » 25 Jul 2017, 07:37

Strange that with all this impending doom from the euro socialists the IMF show the UK at 1.7% growth and France at 1.5% Mighty Germany at 1.8% really showing us as the paupers of Europe.

Despite the assassination of his character by Merse, totally unfair but totally befitting the Socialist narrative these days, as a Brexiteer myself I'm still awaiting the evidence that leaving Europe is bad for Britain.

Labour won't win an election from the left wing of politics, championing a failed election as some kind of victory shows just how deluded and out of touch they are.
Dave




Friend of TorquayFans.com


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 25 Jul 2017, 08:21

Characters who hide behind other agendas and then pretend to be something politically they are not need to have their characters 'assassinated'......

merse btpir » 05 Jul 2017, 21:21
"Just shows where democracy for the ignorant takes you.......did anyone who voted 'leave' in the referendum really make an informed choice borne of truthful information?"

I came into this discussion asking how many people who had voted 'out' now realise they were mis-informed, lied to and manipulated? It is the Danny (now I'm UKIP, before I was Tory ~ oops now I'm Tory again) Harveys of this world who are the ones mis-informing; manipulating and leading people astray.

Preaching the white supremacy of Marine le Pen to a bunch of rabid right wing white women in a Republican enclave in a country built on immigration yet with a President pursuing the atrocious aims he is; is so easy. As easy as standing for the Conservatives in Torbay.

However; right wing agendas will always lead to pursuance of divisive and advantageous policies beneficial to the elite; the haves as opposed to the have nots and the simple exploitation of the people who work hard for very little reward to keep those in comfort comfortable. The tourist and service economy in Torbay being an example of that.

It is the gullibility of those people who have supported the right because they have been persuaded that to do so will benefit them which swung the referendum the way it did; yet when those on the left legitimately try to swing them back again they get called 'Remoaners'.

David Cameron said the EU referendum was a “once in a generation” decision, and he may well have been right. It had, after all, been 41 years since the last one, in 1975, when Harold Wilson’s Labour government asked the public whether Britain should remain in the European Economic Community, as it was then known. That was Britain’s first ever nationwide referendum. Following the overwhelming wish expressed by the British people, the decision to join the EEC was taken by Edward Heath’s government in 1973, but Labour’s manifesto promised a referendum on Britain’s ongoing membership. Margaret Thatcher was staunchly 'in' in those days; people like Danny Harvey should recognise and acknowledge that FACT.

Image
Margaret Thatcher urging the nation to vote 'Yes' in 1975

The question facing voters was, “Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?” Britons were thus divided into Yes and No camps, as opposed to today’s ‘Leave’ and ‘Remain’. Younger Tory activists like Harvey may raise an eyebrow at footage of the then leader of the opposition Margaret Thatcher arguing passionately in favour of Britain remaining in Europe. “Everyone should turn out in this referendum and vote yes, so that the question is over once and for all, we are really in Europe, and ready to go ahead,” she told a television interviewer at the time.

Meanwhile, Labour were badly split over the issue. The suspending of cabinet responsibility allowed senior figures to campaign against the government position (sound familiar?). Tony Benn was a leading figure in the No camp, and was widely mocked and demonised in the press at the time. Most of the daily newspaper big hitters were on the Yes side, with only the Spectator, the Daily Worker and some local papers aligning themselves with the Outs.

The referendum resulted in a heavy win for staying in. According to polling, issues focusing voters’ minds included economic considerations, defence, the future of Britain’s voice in international affairs; and optimism for a prosperous and peaceful future. With memories of the Second World War still relatively fresh, closer European cooperation was seen as a crucial means to avoid future conflict. Might I suggest that now those considerations mean little to the people of today?

A referendum has no more legitimacy to remain set in stone forever than does a General Election result which has a maximum legitimacy of five years; this is (after all) a democracy we live in and whilst acceptance of a majority wish is democratic so is the right to try and change that view.


Plainmoor78
Team Captain
Team Captain
Posts: 525
Joined: 25 Apr 2016, 11:54
Favourite player: Les Lawrence

Post by Plainmoor78 » 25 Jul 2017, 09:32

Merse's Character assassination of Danny is not unfair. Danny places the address of his blog at the end of his posts, so he shouldn't be surprised if somebody actually reads the blog and thus forms an opinion of him. Danny is not acting from the point of view of the man on the Clapham omnibus, but as a political activist who no doubt wishes one day to stand for office. In other words Danny is acting in self interest.
Personally I find danny's views more akin to an American redneck than those reflecting the views of the average Brit.


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 25 Jul 2017, 10:11

Plainmoor78 wrote:
25 Jul 2017, 09:32
Danny is not acting from the point of view of the man on the Clapham omnibus, but as a political activist who no doubt wishes one day to stand for office.
Remember him?
Image
He first made the national news at the age of 16
by addressing the Conservatives at their 1977 Conference.


There are always 'young fogies' acting up to the old dears eager to make a political name for themselves; Danny looks like the modern day equivalent of that ~ well presented, sharp and trained in the art of public speaking. But look behind the image and listen to the rhetoric; it's as tired and reactionary a the Tory message always has been.

William Hague wowed the Conservative Conference in 1977 as a twelve year old looking sixteen year old, fawned over by Thatcher and friends; heartily applauded by frumpy women in silly hats and rose through the ranks to become the most disastrous leader the Conservative Party ever had. He was widely ridiculed for claiming he used to drink "14 pints of beer a day" as a teenager. His reputation suffered further damage when a 2001 poll for The Daily Telegraph found that 66% of voters considered him to be "a bit of a wally", and 70% of voters believed he would "say almost anything to win votes"...he was soon gone . On the morning of Labour's second consecutive landslide victory at the 2001 general election, Hague stated: "we have not been able to persuade a majority, or anything approaching a majority, that we are yet the alternative government that they need." At the 2001 general election the Conservative Party gained just one parliamentary seat more than at the 1997 general election; following this defeat, Hague resigned as party leader.

Image
"OK; OK I get the message" ~ by 2001 Hague had lost both his hair & the Tory leadership

User avatar

Southampton Gull
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6883
Joined: 05 Sep 2010, 01:35
Favourite player: Brett Williams
Location: Southampton

Post by Southampton Gull » 25 Jul 2017, 11:18

Yes it is totally unfair to expect a young man to not explore his political interests and change his stance from time to time. Did you both know then at his tender age what you both know now? Of course not! Life teaches us things that aggressive berating does not. I'm sure you both believe in a socialist utopia but it ain't gonna happen with Corbyn leading the way.

Do either of you believe Trump is going to do any worse than Clinton would have? Dream on.
Dave




Friend of TorquayFans.com


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 25 Jul 2017, 16:32

Southampton Gull wrote:
25 Jul 2017, 11:18
Life teaches us things that aggressive berating does not.
.....and number one needs to be that if you stand on a political soapbox you're going to get heckled!


dannyrvtufc4life
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2463
Joined: 05 Sep 2010, 15:20
Favourite player: ??
Location: Woodland Park, CO, USA
Contact:

Post by dannyrvtufc4life » 26 Jul 2017, 01:53

This '"character assassination" as it's being described doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've been called every name under the sun and it's only going to get worse. I've learnt to enjoy the scrutinisation, it's what Politics and democracy is all about. The insults are even more entertaining, at least I'm getting people involved. When you're on the RIGHT of Politics, you need to be prepared for the socialists and the liberals to attack you in any which way, that's just the way of the game.

There is one thing that I'd like to add to this 'debate.' I'm really not sure with what I've changed my mind on?

In 2010, I decided to get involved in Politics at age 13 because I deemed voting a vital part of our society. I didn't like the David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg rhetoric, it all sounded the same. After the General Election, I decided to do my own research. In 2011, I found Nigel Farage on YouTube. I instantly enjoyed what he said and how he said it, he didn't sound like the stereotypical Politician and Party leader. I listened to both sides of the argument in regards to the European Union and did further research. I came to the conclusion that the EU, in my opinion, was far too authoritarian and undemocratic with an excessive amount of German influence.

I joined UKIP in 2012 and joined the local branch in 2014, helping the European Election campaign in Torbay. In 2015, I stood as a local candidate at 18, the youngest in the country at the time and helped campaign for the General and Mayoral Election as well. I was elected as a member of the UKIP Torbay committee towards the end of 2015 and helped the local Party reach out to more voters on Twitter and other areas of social media. In 2016, I decided to lead the Brexit campaign under Leave.EU, one of (if not the) youngest leader in the UK.

After the LEAVE campaign was victorious and Farage left UKIP, it all started to go wrong. In-fighting (quite literally!), squabbling, resignations, members leaving, poll ratings dropping. It was getting beyond a joke!

I've always said that I would never become a member of a Party if I did not agree with the views of the leader, so when David Cameron resigned, I was eager to see who would become the next Tory leader. I couldn't join the Labour Party because Jeremy Corbyn didn't/doesn't appeal to me. I wanted to see Boris Johnson as leader...then he 'stepped down.' I then wanted Andrea Leadsom as leader...then she 'stepped down.' Theresa May was the last person standing and, initially, I was anxious. However, her speeches were incredibly alluring with a positive Brexit message. I was confident in May as PM and with her cabinet members that she appointed. So, with everything that was going on with UKIP, with the Conservatives and finding myself getting on with Kevin Foster MP very well, I decided to leave UKIP and join the Tories and become an active participant within one of the most successful branches in Britain.

The Prime Minister did very well in her first few months...and then she called a General Election. May totally shot herself in the foot with one the worst campaigns and manifesto's that we have EVER seen. The General Election result was what May deserved. It was a negative, pathetic campaign. But I am glad that the Conservatives won the Election and were able to form a working majority. Article 50 had already been triggered, the countdown to 2019 had begun, we can't keep having General Elections and leadership contests, we need to get the Brexit deal 17.4 million people voted for, we have only got two years! I still think that May as PM with Johnson, Davis and Fox within the Brexit negotiations is the strongest team that we have at the moment and we need to get on with it. Corbyn as PM with four or five other parties would be disastrous.

However, I do think May needs to go after 2019. She may be the best thing as PM with her negotiating team at this present time, but domestically, she is very unpopular, even within her own Party. I don't think that she would be able to drum up enough support to win a General Election with a majority. That would be a disaster for the Conservatives and the country. I would want someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg as PM, that would change everything big time!

As it's been pointed out, I am currently in Colorado, USA. I am a Trump fan, he was a much better option than Hilary Clinton. No doubt I will be abused for that, but I don't care. No President has ever had so much flak. He is a strong, no nonsense, straight talking President who is very popular here in the US. As I agree with the Republican platform more than I do the Democrat, I have decided to get involved in Politics here. It's incredibly different, but speaking to ordinary Republican voters, there are some similarities with the Political atmosphere. I've spoken at many events and working within the Colorado Republican Party statewide on social media.

So, that's where I stand. I understand that my views are unpopular for some people, but if everyone believed in the same thing, what would be the point?
General ramblings, always loquacious on a prodigious amount of different subject matters.
https://dannyharveyblog.wordpress.com/


Fred Perry
On the Bench
On the Bench
Posts: 80
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 13:30
Favourite player: Goalkeeper

Post by Fred Perry » 26 Jul 2017, 02:26

In out , in out, shake it all about,

You will probably see Theresa May doing the "hokey cokey " , when she next meets Angele Merkell !..

Does the government have a clue what BREXIT is going to be ???

Beam me up scottie.


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 26 Jul 2017, 07:53

dannyrvtufc4life wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 01:53
I understand that my views are unpopular for some people, but if everyone believed in the same thing, what would be the point?
Something we agree on!

But you'll need to change that "I would never become a member of a Party if I did not agree with the views of the leader" ~ standing up for your point of view and doing so from within; THAT'S how you change politics..........the grass roots power of Momentum has done much to underpin Jeremy Corbyn and get the feelings of the grass roots back onto the agenda. I rejoined the Labour Party because of that initiative; as did many others preferring to go with my gut reaction from listening and discussing the matter with my fellow citizens in the neighbourhood and totally ignoring the preposterous media campaign to deny the people their voice.

Politics is all about argument and disagreement; it's the very soul of the matter.


Fred Perry
On the Bench
On the Bench
Posts: 80
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 13:30
Favourite player: Goalkeeper

Post by Fred Perry » 26 Jul 2017, 09:08

merse btpir wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 07:53
dannyrvtufc4life wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 01:53
I understand that my views are unpopular for some people, but if everyone believed in the same thing, what would be the point?
Something we agree on!

But you'll need to change that "I would never become a member of a Party if I did not agree with the views of the leader" ~ standing up for your point of view and doing so from within; THAT'S how you change politics..........the grass roots power of Momentum has done much to underpin Jeremy Corbyn and get the feelings of the grass roots back onto the agenda. I rejoined the Labour Party because of that initiative; as did many others preferring to go with my gut reaction from listening and discussing the matter with my fellow citizens in the neighbourhood and totally ignoring the preposterous media campaign to deny the people their voice.

Politics is all about argument and disagreement; it's the very soul of the matter.
Labour really promised free University tuition fees and eradicating student debt, thus attracting the younger voter in the last election.

They now admit they couldn't fulfil this dream.

The majority voted for BREXIT , mainly on the grounds of proper immigration control and governing our own rules.


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 26 Jul 2017, 09:28

Fred Perry wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 09:08
Labour really promised free University tuition fees and eradicating student debt, thus attracting the younger voter in the last election. They now admit they couldn't fulfil this dream.
You really need to read the Labour Party manifesto to comment with authority and by your statement it appears you haven't.......

Labour promised to write off the student fees of any university starters this autumn as part of its bid to lift £38bn worth of debt from student’s shoulders. The party had clarified tuition fees would be abolished for people starting their courses this year, to deter anyone who was thinking of deferring their place until 2018 ~ if Labour won the election.

Labour’s manifesto pledge was to abolish tuition fees from 2018 ~ for those part way through their course ~ which it calculates would reduce student debt by £38bn if fees rise to £9,250. Labour claimed the £9.5bn annual cost of abolishing tuition fees would be paid for by increasing corporation tax, and income tax for people earning over £80,000.

As laid out in its manifesto, Labour are committed to restoring the maintenance grants the Conservatives abolished in 2016. It argues tuition fees have held graduates back by starting their working lives “saddled” with debts averaging almost £45,000.

In their manifesto, Labour promised to scrap university tuition fees in England but there was no mention of writing off unpaid student debt; I have a copy of their manifesto here with me.......you simply won't find what you claim in there!

In March 2016, the total amount of debt owed by English students and EU students studying in England, who under the current system do not have to pay anything upfront, was £76.3bn. Speaking to the BBC earlier this month, Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner actually said it was the party's "ambition" to write off all debt but she acknowledged the cost would be "huge" and it would not commit to doing it "unless we can afford to". Those are the actual words used.

Fred Perry wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 09:08

The majority voted for BREXIT , mainly on the grounds of proper immigration control and governing our own rules.
........and do you now really think you will get what you voted for?


Fred Perry
On the Bench
On the Bench
Posts: 80
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 13:30
Favourite player: Goalkeeper

Post by Fred Perry » 26 Jul 2017, 10:29

merse btpir wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 09:28
Fred Perry wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 09:08
Labour really promised free University tuition fees and eradicating student debt, thus attracting the younger voter in the last election. They now admit they couldn't fulfil this dream.
You really need to read the Labour Party manifesto to comment with authority and by your statement it appears you haven't.......

Labour promised to write off the student fees of any university starters this autumn as part of its bid to lift £38bn worth of debt from student’s shoulders. The party had clarified tuition fees would be abolished for people starting their courses this year, to deter anyone who was thinking of deferring their place until 2018 ~ if Labour won the election.

Labour’s manifesto pledge was to abolish tuition fees from 2018 ~ for those part way through their course ~ which it calculates would reduce student debt by £38bn if fees rise to £9,250. Labour claimed the £9.5bn annual cost of abolishing tuition fees would be paid for by increasing corporation tax, and income tax for people earning over £80,000.

As laid out in its manifesto, Labour are committed to restoring the maintenance grants the Conservatives abolished in 2016. It argues tuition fees have held graduates back by starting their working lives “saddled” with debts averaging almost £45,000.

In their manifesto, Labour promised to scrap university tuition fees in England but there was no mention of writing off unpaid student debt; I have a copy of their manifesto here with me.......you simply won't find what you claim in there!

In March 2016, the total amount of debt owed by English students and EU students studying in England, who under the current system do not have to pay anything upfront, was £76.3bn. Speaking to the BBC earlier this month, Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner actually said it was the party's "ambition" to write off all debt but she acknowledged the cost would be "huge" and it would not commit to doing it "unless we can afford to". Those are the actual words used.

Fred Perry wrote:
26 Jul 2017, 09:08

The majority voted for BREXIT , mainly on the grounds of proper immigration control and governing our own rules.
........and do you now really think you will get what you voted for?

Alot of people ( especially the young ) , voted Labour because they were under the " impression " , they would abolish University Tuition Fees / Get rid of Student Debt .

Corbyn promoted himself heavily amongst the young , too e.g. Glastonbury.

A lot of people similarly voted for BREXIT , for proper control of immigration and to govern with more of our set of rules.

BREXIT is going to go ahead , otherwise there would be a lot of trouble on the streets .

It remains ( no pun intended ) to be seen if previous " Remainers " , Theresa May and Phillip Hammond, have the real conviction , to see a proper , clean BREXIT taking place.

Yes , my wages and others wages have been suppressed.

No, I did not vote for 6 Common Market Countries ( similar economies ) to become 28 EU Countries ( with varied economies ) , where obviously you would be attracted to the likes of rich economies e.g. UK, Germany.

In addition , most of us from my generation , in the 1970s did not go to University to get degrees , as less emphasis on them !...


merse btpir
Player Coach
Player Coach
Posts: 1098
Joined: 02 Jan 2017, 10:58
Favourite player: robin stubbs

Post by merse btpir » 26 Jul 2017, 12:27

You haven't answered my question which was:

" do you now really think you will get what you voted for?"

Or more succinctly: the sort of Brexit you voted for?

Brexit hasn't 'happened' yet and whether it does or it doesn't; exactly what form it occurs in has yet to be revealed. I'm thinking that with 'Remainers' driving much of the Brexit train i.e. May & Hammond; you're going to have to come to terms with a very watered down and prolonged exit strategy that will really frustrate you.

User avatar

Alpine Joe
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 340
Joined: 31 Oct 2010, 16:01

Post by Alpine Joe » 26 Jul 2017, 13:56

Merse
In their manifesto, Labour promised to scrap university tuition fees in England but there was no mention of writing off unpaid student debt; I have a copy of their manifesto here with me.......you simply won't find what you claim in there!


Labour were well aware that inebriated students, of all people, were the last ones who would spend time seeking out manifestos and then studying them in detail. But the people who would have known for sure that Merse was exactly right when he says there was no mention of writing off unpaid student debt....because the claim simply didn't officially exist.......were Corbyn's very own Shadow Ministers....in fact they probably played a part in drawing up the manifesto.

But knowing full well that there wasn't a single word about writing off unpaid student debt, on the very eve of the election what was the message they were pushing hard to students ? Here is Shadow Minister Sharon Hodgson's plea to students already with student debt

Image


Yet it now seems 'Labour could' had no more basis, judged on their manifesto, that the Tories could' or the Liberals could' because there was zilch about the debt that those students already in their 20's had, anywhere to be found in Labour's plans set out in their manifesto.

And here's someone else who should have had a far firmer and more accurate grasp of Labour's manifesto than any teenager thinking about University. The Shadow Justice Minister Imran Hussain. But what 'justice' was there in telling young people something that was blatantly untrue ? It's all very well Hussain telling electors, it's your own fault for not checking the manifesto to see if I was lying to you. But it makes the current claims of innocence ring hollow with many young people who believed what they were clearly told in speech, if not in writing by Labour .

"Every existing student will have all their debts wiped off"


https://youtu.be/JS7JmLY8EP8


Fred Perry
On the Bench
On the Bench
Posts: 80
Joined: 18 Nov 2016, 13:30
Favourite player: Goalkeeper

Post by Fred Perry » 27 Jul 2017, 01:05

The Labour " abolish university fees / wipe off student debt " con , was taken in by potential and existing students , together with many of their parents !...

Thus the Tory majority was "considerably " narrowed and thus a hard BREXIT could potentially be prevented . By hard BREXIT , most people would include proper Immigration control e.g. ( Australian points scoring system / Skill shortage occupations admitted only ).

England and Wales will keep the voting age at 18 - imagine what would happen if we lowered it to 16 , where the gullible younger voters could well be "brainwashed", by the many Guardian teachers / lecturers.

Education should be ashamed of itself , as it mainly promotes a " remain " agenda , rather than seeing both sides of the argument !...

Post Reply