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Post by Colorado Gull »

You've got to remember Steve that there are a couple more important elections coming up before the 2015 general election. We've got the local elections in 2013, the European Elections in 2014 which polls say UKIP would come second on around 23%. They came second in the last European Elections, have got 18 months to change the polls and I reckon UKIP have a great chance in winning the European Election in 2014. We'll have to see how these turn out before the general election, but the opinions in the polls show even more good signs for UKIP.

When you say the UKIP vote hasn't reached 'up country' yet, remember UKIP came second in two by elections in Middlesborough and Rotherham, while coming in third in Corby.
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Post by stevegull »

dannyrvtufc4life wrote:You've got to remember Steve that there are a couple more important elections coming up before the 2015 general election. We've got the local elections in 2013, the European Elections in 2014 which polls say UKIP would come second on around 23%. They came second in the last European Elections, have got 18 months to change the polls and I reckon UKIP have a great chance in winning the European Election in 2014. We'll have to see how these turn out before the general election, but the opinions in the polls show even more good signs for UKIP.

When you say the UKIP vote hasn't reached 'up country' yet, remember UKIP came second in two by elections in Middlesborough and Rotherham, while coming in third in Corby.
I did not know that stat, in that case it is certainly more exciting times ahead IF they can keep the momentum up. There are normally plenty of parties that try to market themselves as the 'other' party as if they are not tarnished by the badge of being a 'politician'. Of course, UKIP will have a leg-up on the Lib Dems for that now as many appear to have lost faith in Clegg.

My knowledge of the European elections is a bit more hazy. Someone might have to help me out. I was under the impression Farage once had a seat in Europe (and completely laid in to some chap sat in the middle). I also don't really understand why a party who's main policy is to get the UK independent from Europe seems to have such a strong showing in these polls for European elections? Is it because they're the ones more likely to play 'hard-ball' with the European big-wigs?

Anyway, personally I'm not sure we should be independent from Europe. I think Cameron's got it right by trying to renegotiate our deal to try and just re-establish the 'free market' we originally signed up for.
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Post by AustrianAndyGull »

Jesus! I'm not as intelligent as a couple of teenagers!! What's going on here lads? :lol:
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Post by Colorado Gull »

The European elections are more complicated than a general election in a specific country, but I'm going to try and explain it as best as I can. Each political party who has MEP's (members of European Parliament) are in a different constituency in the EU parliament. For example the conservatives MEP's are in the 'European Conservatives and Reformist' constituency with 26 seats. UKIP have 13 seats (13 MEP's including Nigel Farage) and are in the 'Europe of free and democracy' constituency. Labour and the Lib Dems are also in different constituency's with fewer seats but I hope you get the gist. Each constituency is made up by MEP's from different member states. What you're voting for, is the political party you want to have more of a say in the European Parliament and therefore the constituency you want to be the strongest voice! UKIP are involved with the European Parliment and have such a high poll rating in the European Elections for 2014, is because people want an in out EU referdum on our membership, more and more people don't want to be in the EU and UKIP and the freedom and democracy constituency are involved with the European Parliament, because they need to have a voice and tell the people why being in the EU is just awful.
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Post by chunkygull »

crikey we've gone from views on gay marriage to political affiliations to elections to european politics and then to referendums. :-o
and i thought the football chat went from one extreme to the other at times. :|
but i do like it, good thread. :-D
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Post by Colorado Gull »

stevegull wrote:Anyway, personally I'm not sure we should be independent from Europe. I think Cameron's got it right by trying to renegotiate our deal to try and just re-establish the 'free market' we originally signed up for.
Well I think we should be independant and sooner the better! There are so many reasons for this, I cannot put them all at once!

Coming onto your point of renegotiation, it simply won't happen. To renegotiate your membership of the EU, every member state must vote and a majority 'yes' in order for renegotiation. The simple fact of the matter is, the member states will not be bothered, especially Germany and France. David Cameron knows this and his speech he made, was pro EU, hidden well (?).

I agree with your last point though Steve, I want a Europe of which we were 'promised' in 1975 when joining the common market. NO politics involved and JUST about being friends with European countries and free trading.
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Post by chunkygull »

dannyrvtufc4life wrote:The European elections are more complicated than a general election in a specific country, but I'm going to try and explain it as best as I can. Each political party who has MEP's (members of European Parliament) are in a different constituency in the EU parliament. For example the conservatives MEP's are in the 'European Conservatives and Reformist' constituency with 26 seats. UKIP have 13 seats (13 MEP's including Nigel Farage) and are in the 'Europe of free and democracy' constituency. Labour and the Lib Dems are also in different constituency's with fewer seats but I hope you get the gist. Each constituency is made up by MEP's from different member states. What you're voting for, is the political party you want to have more of a say in the European Parliament and therefore the constituency you want to be the strongest voice! UKIP are involved with the European Parliment and have such a high poll rating in the European Elections for 2014, is because people want an in out EU referdum on our membership, more and more people don't want to be in the EU and UKIP and the freedom and democracy constituency are involved with the European Parliament, because they need to have a voice and tell the people why being in the EU is just awful.
holy sh*t, are you sure you are only 16. cant believe you know all this stuff yet arent old enough to vote. :-o

as for political affiliation i am starting to be swayed more and more to the likes of your party as many others are. ;-)

the only problem ukip may have is anytime a politician or group or party starts to say lets be all for britain and british interests or lets sensibly curb immigration etc there is always those that try and shout them down by accusing them of being racist. labour constantly did it when anyone dared question their immigration policy or stance on europe and now look at the mess we are in. :'(

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Post by Colorado Gull »

Yes, I am only 16 years of age, just a huge nerd in politics! Coming onto your point, UKIP has had loads of that already, just by the PM though. Calling UKIP 'a party full of fruit cakes, nutters and closet racists'. The Lib Dems most probably follow that quote, with Ed Miliband actually said UKIP 'should be involved in the tv debates' (but that's only because he knows UKIP will make the Tories lose votes (51 seats lost in a recent poll!). The fact is, you've got to ignore the ridiculous sayings of UKIP being 'racists'. If you look at the manifesto it says nothing about any racist view, UKIP have members and supporters of many ethnics and UKIP do not allow anyone to join the party, if they've been invloved with any racist party or group like the BNP or the EDL. To say UKIP are racist is just nonsense.
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Post by chunkygull »

="dannyrvtufc4life"][Well I think we should be independant and sooner the better! There are so many reasons for this, I cannot put them all at once!

Coming onto your point of renegotiation, it simply won't happen. To renegotiate your membership of the EU, every member state must vote and a majority 'yes' in order for renegotiation. The simple fact of the matter is, the member states will not be bothered, especially Germany and France. David Cameron knows this and his speech he made, was pro EU, hidden well (?).

I agree with your last point though Steve, I want a Europe of which we were 'promised' in 1975 when joining the common market. NO politics involved and JUST about being friends with European countries and free trading.
you definitely seem to know your stuff.are you sure you dont have ambitions to be PM. :bow:

that last statement is absolutely spot on and exactly the way things should be. :-D

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Post by chunkygull »

dannyrvtufc4life wrote:Yes, I am only 16 years of age, just a huge nerd in politics!
Coming onto your point, UKIP has had loads of that already, just by the PM though. Calling UKIP 'a party full of fruit cakes, nutters and closet racists.
The Lib Dems most probably follow that quote, with Ed Miliband actually said UKIP 'should be involved in the tv debates' (but that's only because he knows UKIP will make the Tories lose votes (51 seats lost in a recent poll!). The fact is, you've got to ignore the ridiculous sayings of UKIP being 'racists'. If you look at the manifesto it says nothing about any racist view, UKIP have members and supporters of many ethnics and UKIP do not allow anyone to join the party, if they've been invloved with any racist party or group like the BNP or the EDL. To say UKIP are racist is just nonsense.
yes i have seen that. there was a bit of that implied when nigel farage was on question time. it is definitely about time, as a few have said on here that the british public stopped just voting for a party because of who they are. if people opened their eyes and ears and actually took notice of policies and possible consequences of who may be in power then we would live in a proper, fair democracy. everyones moaning about the tories and the coalition and what they are doing but if people had actually took notice of manifesto and policies in the build up to the last election there is no big surprise. the tories are doing exactly what they said they were going to. labour lost a popularity contest not a political one. and that is usually the way it always is.
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Post by Dave »

Top thread Danny, must admit you have shocked me some what with this one, and fair play to you, for someone so young to come out and admit have a real interest in politics was brave indeed. I have become some what apathetic towards politics over the last few years. I think it because over the years Labour and the Tories have become more alike and both have tried to nick the centre ground, the Tories became famous for sleeze, and Labour once in power soon caught them up.

And this is what I think the whole gay marriage thing is about, the goverment are so unpopular over cut backs they have come up with this thing to show how they are moving with the times and just how lIberal the Tories have become, I am broad minded no problem with two people of the same sex getting together, just do not want in my face, it is not right or natural and was never meant to be, what gets my goat aswell, me and mrs forever have been together since 1991, we have 2 children, we decided a long time ago that niether of us wanted to or had the will to get married, that is our choice. But now a gay couple in a civil partnership with out kids have more legal rights than we do, hows that right.

I just wish the goverment would forget this whole gay marriage thing, stuff tax breaks for married couples, how is that going to help encourage peole like us to get married when it would be worth a few quid extra a year, and start looking at feeding the 100's in this country that have no food or money to but it.
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Post by chunkygull »

forevertufc wrote:Top thread Danny, must admit you have shocked me some what with this one, and fair play to you, for someone so young to come out and admit have a real interest in politics was brave indeed. I have become some what apathetic towards politics over the last few years. I think it because over the years Labour and the Tories have become more alike and both have tried to nick the centre ground, the Tories became famous for sleeze, and Labour once in power soon caught them up.

And this is what I think the whole gay marriage thing is about, the goverment are so unpopular over cut backs they have come up with this thing to show how they are moving with the times and just how lIberal the Tories have become, I am broad minded no problem with two people of the same sex getting together, just do not want in my face, it is not right or natural and was never meant to be, what gets my goat aswell, me and mrs forever have been together since 1991, we have 2 children, we decided a long time ago that niether of us wanted to or had the will to get married, that is our choice. But now a gay couple in a civil partnership with out kids have more legal rights than we do, hows that right.

I just wish the goverment would forget this whole gay marriage thing, stuff tax breaks for married couples, how is that going to help encourage peole like us to get married when it would be worth a few quid extra a year, and start looking at feeding the 100's in this country that have no food or money to but it.
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Post by AustrianAndyGull »

Danny, when can i vote for you mate? =D

I'd best be careful getting involved in this thread now otherwise i'll make myself sound like a right northern monkey!
( What do you mean i do anyway?! :@ )

I can honestly say that i have no REAL knowledge of the exact mechanisms of our political system like Danny does and therefore most of my posts on this thread will be just views. My opinions on certain decisions that are made ( or not made ) by our politicians.

Can i throw a subject out there to discuss?

HOW COME YOU ARE BETTER OFF NOT WORKING AND PENALISED FOR WORKING?

Examples:

1. I was on working tax credits a few years ago and the way they work it out made it economically beneficial for me to stay on them rather than get a job, at least at the minimum wage. Also i was entitled to free prescriptions, dental care, courses and other extras just for holding a WTC card.

2. If you go on the dole and live in a council house you'll get council tax benefit, housing benefit, free prescriptions and other things. If you suddenly get a job around the min wage you are now liable for all these and the amount you have left doesn't make it worth working.

3. You've had a job for the last 5 years, worked really hard and put money away in an account for something like a holiday in Australia to see your sister. You become unemployed and get less dole because you have savings. That's all wrong.

4. You pay into a private pension all your working life then get less state pension because you've been responsible and got a private one. Meanwhile, people who have frittered their spare cash on fags and online bingo get the lot. It's wrong.

5. When i was unemployed a good few years ago i was told i couldn't claim Jobseekers because i lived with a partner who worked over 16 hours a week so therefore was in a position to 'support' me financially. This shocked me as firstly, i thought that each person as an individual in their own right should be entitled to jobseekers if they are seeking work , regardless of other circumstance. Furthermore, when i worked i paid tax and national insurance which some goes towards if i need to get benefits one day. If i'm not entitled then would they give me the portion of that tax and nat insurance i paid back as an individual in my own right? Will they f*ck. Criminals and thieves.

My simple solution is increase the miniumum wage so that at least if someone comes off benefits to take a min wage job there is at least a nice bit left after everything has been paid for them to enjoy. The current rate just means that for the small amount people would be better off, it's just not worth going out to work full time for a few extra quid than they were getting on the dole. If people saw that getting a min wage job meant they actually had a good few quid to spend at the end of a hard working month they are more likely to be tempted out of the cycle of benefits and that can only be good for the economy.

Labour keep on saying it was they who brought in the minimum wage but if it's not enough then it's f#cking pointless.


What do you guys think about my topic and the minmum wage?
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Post by Dave »

Oh do not get me started on the minimum wage Andy. When the Labour goverment brought it in I was a big supporter of it, there were companys really taking the mick back then paying less than £2 an hour, however those companys were few and far between, you could look through the jobs paper/sites and see many vacant jobs back then paying well above what the original minimum wage was set at.

Over the last few years companys in general have used the mimimum wage as an excuse to impose pay freezes, less than inflation pay rises so bit by bit their pay scales have dropped to meet the minimum wage, I now see it as a bad idea, atleast in the past you had a quite a large choice between working for a few companys who were bad payers and a large number who were not, recently Mrs forever was made redundant and we were both shocked at the number of jobs where the employer wanted full quaifications in return for £6.19 an hour, who is taking the mick out of who.

As luck would have it she found a job after 6 weeks and the entry level pay was well above the min wage and full training given.

The results of a recent study showed the break even wage in this country would be around £8.54 if I remember rightly, so why is the min wage £6.19 ?
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Post by stevegull »

Think what you want about the coalition but one constant line you get out of Cameron and Clegg is that they want to crack down on the unfairness you have mentioned. Particularly about being better off on benefits than in work. But rather than raise the minimum wage I believe they are proposing simply to reduce some of the perks available to those who have been unemployed for a long amount of time and show no inclination to go out and get a job.

However, cracking down on this means Miliband has a line of attack he loves to take. "You're hitting the poor hardest!" No. They're simply cleaning up some of the mess labour left them. There's a chap in my village that has never had a job and is in his 30s with 3 kids and has been given a 5-bed house. He has enough money to smoke at least 40-a-day and even has a go at gambling. It sickens me. He also asked me and my brother why we don't have sky on TV and we said it was 'too expensive'. It's so poor that my brother and I don't feel we have enough money for all these luxuries but he found it alien that we couldn't afford to ship out £40 a month on TV. But the coalition is proposing some bills that would try and equal thi disparity but like most things they suggest, Labour decides it isn't what it wants.

Thanks for your explaining of the whole Europe thing Danny. The whole debate just makes it seem more and more stupid that Labour shoved all the powers in the direction of the EU as there appears to be little way out for us to go back to our 'free market'. But surely if we decide to go 'independent' then it becomes even less likely that the EU would accept us in a 'free market'? I will await the results of Cameron's negotiations, no matter how remote the possibility of a success.
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