Perfect Dive..

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Perfect Dive..

Post by Gullscorer »

..by Brazil's Damiao to win them a penalty in their Olympic quarter-final against Honduras and bring the score to 2 - 2. Certainly fooled the referee and the commentator, and strengthens the case to bring in, not just goal-line technology, but video replays for crucial moments in important matches. Brazil won 3 - 2.
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Post by stevegull »

Whilst I understand that result may be an injustice I remain against using technology for anything other than determining if the ball has crossed the line. There are so many incidents in a football game that can be deemed 'controversial' and it would definitely slow the game down. And where do you draw the line? Would you go to the video ref to decide who should win a throw-in? Would their be retrospective looking at the award of a throw-in if someone scored from it?

There are SO MANY little incidents that could be looked at in the run up to ANY goal. A slight shirt pull from a player not near the ball could end up ruling out a goal that would normally get awarded. In short, more goals would be ruled out for rather irrelevant incidents. Even if it does stop some of the shady decisions it would just impact the game too much IMO.

To stop the problem of diving I think referees have to be more hard-nosed with their decisions. It should also be in the players' rule book that they have to try and remain on their feet during a game. Referees should also be reminded that fouls can be committed without a player going to ground, so hopefully the incentive for a player diving is removed. Punish dives with bookings more regularly, and possibly even fines or bans with retrospective action. Hit them hard with the rule book then they won't go to ground.
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Post by ferrarilover »

A bit like introducing a booking for taking off a shirt will stop players doing it?

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Post by stevegull »

ferrarilover wrote:A bit like introducing a booking for taking off a shirt will stop players doing it?

Matt.
I'd say essentially it did. It used to happen LOADS more than it does now.
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Post by cambgull »

I never really saw the problem of players taking off their shirts. It's just a different way of celebrating.

Video refs should be used like they are in Rugby, when the Referee is unsure of the decision in a crucial position (foul in the penalty box etc). The argument that it would slow the game down is rubbish, it would just take the same amount of time that it takes for half a teams worth of fancy-boys to crowd around a Referee to tell him he's wrong.
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Post by Kernowgull »

I have made this arguement against hoal-line technology before, and was shouted down, but surely England v Ukraine was evidence enough to say we shouldnt have it. On that occasion 2 wrongs did make a right, and im always amazed how people go on about being robbed with a few goalline incidents (that was the only one in the Euros) but not for incorrect offsides etc.

You either have to fix it all, or not at all.
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Post by Gullscorer »

Don't forget Germany's 'goal' against England in the last World Cup..!

I would not envisage goal line technology and video evidence being introduced universally, at least not for some years, and certainly not in normal league matches where refereeing errors tend to equalise out over the course of a season, so no one club should be disadvantaged, the exception perhaps being the Premier League, where big money is at stake (and money talks..).

However, I believe there is a case for it to be introduced in important cup and international competitions, certainly the goal-line technology, but also to allow appeals against penalty decisions and offside appeals in and around the penalty area. That is to say, the decisions on those parts of the pitch where there would be an immediate and direct effect as to the scoring, or not, of a goal.

Combine all this with heavier penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct, in the interests of fair play.
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Post by leetufc »

The problem with using video referees is when do you stop play to have a look?

Do you wait until the game stops naturally? Do you stop the games play and then have to find a way of restarting, such as a drop ball?

The problem of waiting until the ball has gone out of play is two-fold. It could take a couple of minutes until that happens, which could cause long extra times at the end of games if play is brought back. It could also cause problems if you have an incident at one end and then the other team go up the other end and score a goal. If you bring the decision back, you then have to also disallow a goal. This would have happend in the 05 champions league final, when Nesta handled in the box and could have been given as a penalty, then AC Milan went up the other end and scored.

If you have to stop play when it happens, then you have to restart if the decision is correct, with a drop ball most likely, which wouldn't make for great viewing if there were three or four incidents in a game.

I suppose the only way to make it work would be to have someone constantly watching replays who can speak to the ref and tell him, but there will still be problems regarding time issues using this.

Personally not a fan of using video referees in football. Sports like cricket and rugby have natural stoppages when incidents happen which make it easier. I am a fan of goal line technology though if the decision is instant with a bleep in the referees ear. If the game has to be stopped I am not a fan. It also removes talking points.

I also think more retrospective actions need to be taken against players who cheat. I would like to bring in a system where the referee can ask the player what happened. Ask him if he got touched, because he will know whether he was or not. If he lies and says he has been, and its clearly proven he lied later on, he gets an instant 10/15 game ban. If he did get touched, then the right decision was made. If he didn't get touched and tells the truth during the game, then play goes on. For example, when Henry handballed against Ireland, the ref would have asked him. if he said he didn't handle it, he then gets a massive ban as punishmentafter the game.
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Post by Kernowgull »

Still disagree. As mentioned, in 30 odd games at the euros, there was one goal line incident, which had technology been in place, would have seen one mistake corrected. However, the fact that the player was offside in the first place means that goal line technology would have meant one incorrect decision. Goal line decisions are no more important than offsides or fouls in the box, and a lot less frequent. Corrrct them sll (not feasable) ir accept that refs are human and enjoy the bloody game, you win some, you lose some.
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Post by stevegull »

I'd much prefer no technology compared to all technology.
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Post by Trojan 67 »

leetufc wrote:The problem with using video referees is when do you stop play to have a look?

Do you wait until the game stops naturally? Do you stop the games play and then have to find a way of restarting, such as a drop ball?

The problem of waiting until the ball has gone out of play is two-fold. It could take a couple of minutes until that happens, which could cause long extra times at the end of games if play is brought back. It could also cause problems if you have an incident at one end and then the other team go up the other end and score a goal. If you bring the decision back, you then have to also disallow a goal. This would have happend in the 05 champions league final, when Nesta handled in the box and could have been given as a penalty, then AC Milan went up the other end and scored.

If you have to stop play when it happens, then you have to restart if the decision is correct, with a drop ball most likely, which wouldn't make for great viewing if there were three or four incidents in a game.

I suppose the only way to make it work would be to have someone constantly watching replays who can speak to the ref and tell him, but there will still be problems regarding time issues using this.

Personally not a fan of using video referees in football. Sports like cricket and rugby have natural stoppages when incidents happen which make it easier. I am a fan of goal line technology though if the decision is instant with a bleep in the referees ear. If the game has to be stopped I am not a fan. It also removes talking points.

I also think more retrospective actions need to be taken against players who cheat. I would like to bring in a system where the referee can ask the player what happened. Ask him if he got touched, because he will know whether he was or not. If he lies and says he has been, and its clearly proven he lied later on, he gets an instant 10/15 game ban. If he did get touched, then the right decision was made. If he didn't get touched and tells the truth during the game, then play goes on. For example, when Henry handballed against Ireland, the ref would have asked him. if he said he didn't handle it, he then gets a massive ban as punishmentafter the game.

Excellent post !

As for Henry . . . . . .

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Post by Colorado Gull »

Yep agree Lee and a top post! Also a very interesting idea in your last paragraph, a proposal that could work, but is very unlikely the FA would introduce, I like it though!

For me the only technology that I would like to see (and the only thing I can think that would be introduced) is touch line technology. It would be so quick, easy and correct something that can change a game. The officials that stand near the goal are absolutely useless, you may as well have a cardboard cut out of an official. If there was a situation where it was debatable whether the ball had or had not crossed the line, the referee could talk to the video referee. The ref who was watching the replay could give a quick decision to the ref on whether a goal should be given or not.

What about Corners or throw ins? The officials have to do something! If people are suggesting that they would like to slow the game down so much to get every single decision correct, we may as well have no officials at all and just have cameras. What's the point in having officials if you want every single decision (a pull on a shirt, a tackle whether it deserves a red or yellow etc, a corner etc) decided by a video ref, it would ruin our beautiful game.

I say all this and think we should only have goal line technology and not any other technology, because it would slow the game down too much, there would be no point for officials if too much technology was introduced and we've seen enough evidence that we desperately need goal line technology, moreover any other type of decision.

Technology in football is a very difficult one to talk about, but this is my honest opinion on the matter.
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Post by cambgull »

I really don't see the confusion here. The use of a video ref should be no different than to that of the 'Play On' rule.

For example, an attacking team takes a shot which is debatable as to whether it goes in. While the game continues, the referee signals that he would like help on the decision and the attacking team is still given the opportunity to score and the defending team given the opportunity to clear (just like what would happen anyway). If the goal is given, then the game is stopped in the standard way. If the goal is not given, then the game continues from where it currently is. If the defending team take control of the ball before the decision is made, then and only then is the game stopped and a free kick given to the defending team in the place that possession is won. A quick free kick may be taken in order for the defending team to break. Make sense?

As for penalty decisions, if the referee is unsure then he will give the decision a 'no', as he should do anyway. He will then signal for help on the incident and the game continues. If the decision is a penalty, then the game is pulled back and a penalty given to the attacking team. Any goals scored by the attacking team will overrule the penalty and any goals by the defending team will be ruled out. If the decision is no penalty, then the game will continue and the referee does not have to stop the game at all.
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Post by happytorq »

MLS has something called the Disciplinary Committee. Every monday they meet and go over incidents from the weekend and if they referee has missed it they'll levy fines and suspensions. They banned Beckham for having a go at a ref after a game (which he generally does, to be fair), and back at the beginning of the year they fined and banned Colin Clark for calling a ballboy a "faggot". They also made him go to sensitivity training.
Last season they banned Charlie Davies for a dive too. It's not perfect, but it's better that what the FA does. Namely...nothing.

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Post by stevegull »

I thought the FA did have a panel that met after a gameweek to discuss incidents the referee missed. I remember because that in itself is fairly controversial, as if a referee did spot an incident but didn't give it a harsh enough punishment there is nothing the FA can do about it as they deem the incident 'dealt with'. Tell me 'happytorq', did the incidents you refer to recieve an in-game punishment as well as their retrospective one?
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