Very confused - what is GI's game?

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MellowYellow
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Very confused - what is GI's game?

Post by MellowYellow » 17 Sep 2017, 12:21

moneylife wrote:
15 Sep 2017, 13:56
its all speculation though. AFAIK know nobody here has proof that GI are going to redevelop the plainmoor ground into dwellings. Not one bit of actual proof, just hearsay and people reading the past dealings of the new owners.
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Post by Yorkieandy » 18 Sep 2017, 08:46

moneylife wrote:
15 Sep 2017, 13:56
its all speculation though. AFAIK know nobody here has proof that GI are going to redevelop the plainmoor ground into dwellings. Not one bit of actual proof, just hearsay and people reading the past dealings of the new owners.
There is 'no actual proof' either way. We cannot prove that GI are in it for housing but there also is no proof that they aren't as they haven't built a single stadium yet in all these years of claiming they intend to do so.

On that basis i think it sensible to go on known facts rather than speculation (which is what you prefer based on your post) which are that GI have taken over various sports establishments and despite claiming to want to build new stadiums have not yet managed to build one.

Not hearsay but fact. Some would even say 'proof'. ;-)


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Post by merse btpir » 18 Sep 2017, 09:44

Exactly; and underlining just why the freehold of Plainmoor must not be disposed of by the current holders (the council) and certainly not as a means of the purchaser being able to use it as collateral towards financing the construction of it's replacement.....that's where it can and most probably will all fall down leaving the club homeless.

Rather that it has to be 'the other way round' in that the freehold can only be disposed of without risk when said replacement is built, finished and ready for business.

It's not rocket science is it!


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Post by Yorkieandy » 18 Sep 2017, 10:34

Couldn't GI have approached the council prior to taking over at TUFC, disclose their clear intentions to obtain the freehold and got an agreement drafted up that gave them this upon completion and signing over a new stadium?

If they were genuine then isn't this the way to go about things?

Get a legally binding agreement, get the stadium built as quick as possible to save GI money with both running a football club longer than they require and also not being able to make any money on the Plainmoor land whilst no housing has been built and bobs yer uncle.

I'm not a businessman but that's the way i'd do it. If i wanted the freehold and intended to build the new stadium in exchange then i'd just get on and do it. If i wanted the freehold and didn't intend to build a new stadium then i'm not sure i'd waste any more time and money running a struggling non league football club. That's what confuses me. The freehold must be worth a fortune for all this to be worthwhile otherwise GI will end up just having to sell on and walk away probably out of pocket and having wasted so much time.

If the freehold isn't worth an absolute fortune then that's when i really struggle to see why GI have got involved with the club.


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Post by Plainmoor78 » 18 Sep 2017, 13:12

I would of thought the plainmoor footprint was a bit limited to build decent housing on. But if you consider that a land swap with the council getting plainmoor (after they sold it to GI) and GI getting quinta then it be becomes a different kettle of fish.


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Post by cambgull » 19 Sep 2017, 15:07

I just want to try a little cost exercise. These are all total guesses at figures, so if anyone can provide more realistic prices, that would be great.

Running club for 3+ years - £2m
Purchase of Plainmoor - £500k to £1m
Purchase of new land - £500k to £1m
Materials for new stadium - £1.5m to £8m
Materials for new houses - £750k to £1.5m

Materials figures including building costs. New stadium figures based on work beginning on building, through to the top figure at completion.

Value of 50 flats at average of £150,000 - £7.5m

Total cost - £5.25m to £13.5m
Total return - £7.5m
Total profit - £2.25m to -£6m

Is it really worth it for several years work and a sizeable chunk of money invested, to get a maximum of £2.25m back? Whilst this is no small amount, there must be far more profitable ventures for them.
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Post by PhilGull » 19 Sep 2017, 15:39

There are also the tax benefits. A lot of clubs are bought because they run at a loss and can be used to offset the profits of the parent club, thereby lessening the tax due.
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Post by TorquayDNA » 20 Sep 2017, 16:36

WestYorkshireGull - replying to your comment on the Cullompton game thread:

Sorry to disappoint (LOL) old chap, I have never met or set eyes on Geoff and I'm certainly not the man himself! I can't help trying to view everything surrounding TUFC in a positive light, it's just the way I am. It's not to say that I'm averse to criticism of how things are run - I believe that every 'business' should welcome constructive criticism as it is the best way to continually improve. I think that GI would do very well to actively listen to fans concerns as well as suggestions for how things could be improved, as well as let fans into their plans and get them on board. I live in hope (not massively confident at this stage though) that GI are just ineffective at communication rather than trying to hide some agenda that puts the future of TUFC at risk. I'm repeating myself here but I just can't see why GI would bother to go to all the effort and expense to do that (although I get that their past history is pretty worrying and they have everything to prove before they can gain the trust of fans). Good point on the tax though PhilGull, I'm actually more worried than I was a week ago after the 'new coach bounce' - especially given that we're pretty much relying on the council to ensure that the future of Plainmoor and TUFC is secure, sustainable and doesn't adversely affect the club (if a new stadium is necessary). And we all know how frightfully incompetent the council is!

Where criticism is unnecessary is where it's personal, pathetic and generally not helpful to the cause. If we want to prove to GI that it would be worthwhile their listening to fans then we have to put forward a far more mature and well-reasoned argument than is sometimes apparent on this forum. I'm not saying they're going to take on all the advice they're given (you can never please everybody) but at least they have the chance to seriously consider it.

Criticism yes, but constructive criticism please. I will gladly stand up for any constructive criticism that is well-reasoned and makes sense.

Take Merse for example; I may not agree with everything he says but at least his comments are based on considerable football knowledge, a realistic approach and an ability to remove emotion out of the argument to look at things with a clear, logical viewpoint. As he says in an earlier post in this thread we really don't have any other option and at the end of the day, the main reason for the dire financial and footballing position the club is in now is because of a drastic lack of business acumen for far too long.

Back to your point, I have no idea if the club (or owners thereof) have a plan to restore the club to greatness but I sincerely hope so. Maybe a concerted and very visible effort by fans to get the message across to GI that we want to know what their vision is would help?

I must admit that as a businessman myself, it's not unusual to see 'businesses' hide their vision from their customers. I think it's crazy that people don't include their most important stakeholders (the customers/fans) in their long-term view!!


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Post by westyorkshiregull » 20 Sep 2017, 17:13

Great response ...clearly more constructive than my negative posts sometimes .

Off pitch I'm dubious AND 4 weeks without a manager and no bleeding word from osborne and Harrop has made me feel even more isolated from our owners. I think it was rude after 10 days or so to just leave us all scratching our head and questioning the owners intention yet again. I'm neutral on this new managment team and I'm still positive they were rushed in last minute as herrera failed which would have been cheaper easier option for GI

Anyhow that's in the past and I hope we can get back to things more on the park.

I don't have trust in GI and it's only marginally better than having no club if I'm honest. Best bet for me is for GI to hopefully sell the club on before they mess up and lose plainmoor for me

Plainmoor is torquay united . I'm not into business , but all this multiple revenue shit about a new stadium seems just a smokescreen to buy , build and profit from plainmoor


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Post by Plainmoor78 » 20 Sep 2017, 17:17

I have just been talking to an employee of stagecoach (the bus company). He says that stagecoach and Carlsberg are interested in purchasing the land at nightingale park for a new bus depot and premises for Carlsberg.


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Post by Dazza » 20 Sep 2017, 18:02

That would mean GI missing the bus!!!!

However it seems a better use for an area giving off gasses arising from its previous use ( that are costly to deal with if properly built on ) than a football stadium and it's offices.

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Post by MellowYellow » 20 Sep 2017, 19:44

westyorkshiregull wrote:
20 Sep 2017, 17:13
...clearly more constructive than my negative posts sometimes .
Why do you think your posts are negative and less constructive than others? because someone has convinced you they are? Your criticism is no more than your reasoned account of the feelings produced upon you by the actions of GI and the club. Criticism is not science: it is, much too personal, it is concerned with your personal view of the situation. All the critical twiddle-twaddle about style and form, all the pseudoscientific classifying and analysing of how constructive criticism should look and be, is mere hogwash.

There is more than one viewpoint in life and if you are honest in your criticism, then there is an excellent chance - I would go so far as to say it is unavoidable - that you are going to piss somebody off. So you keep criticising as you see fit (negative or otherwise).
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Post by TorquayDNA » 20 Sep 2017, 21:00

LOL no worries West Yorkshire... It actually made me laugh to hear someone thought I was Harrop!! I'm not blaming you. At the end of the day, it's pretty difficult to find anything to be positive about at this club right now.

And thanks for your post mellow yellow. I wasn't slating WYG for being negative but merely saying that there are some on this site who do nothing but moan, and never seem to offer anything by way of a solution. WYG isn't in that class ;). Thanks for highlighting it.

As you say WYG, the whole saga around recruiting a new coach is still leaving a very bitter taste. Weary gulls fans are just crying out for some stability and a sign from GI that they're not just profiteering at the expense of the club. I think we're going to have to be prepared for GI to try to make money out of this is investment (we can't expect them not to) but we must be absolutely clear that they can only do that once the club is on a sound financial footing and consistently successful...


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Post by TorquayDNA » 20 Sep 2017, 21:14

Interesting analysis from CambGull. Anyone else got any thoughts on the maths of it all?


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Post by Chris_F » 21 Sep 2017, 07:26

Morning all from a regular viewer but infrequent poster. I have a few thoughts and they are nothing more than that....

Personal, and company taxes can be a real pain - ask Harry Redknap.... I think that with various business assets that GI have their tax bill might well be higher than they feel comfortable with.
Effectively they won TUFC in a lottery, anyone else could have come in for the club ahead of them at any time, it cost them very little and the attitude was if they got it, they got it, if they didn't they didn't.
Now they do have it, they have a problem - what to do with it.
Everything is open to speculation and their track record isn't great for the likes of Bristol Rovers etc.
However, and these are just my thoughts, I think they may well be using the club as a kind of tax loophole. Personally, I have a couple of businesses and when one is doing well then I put money into tax-deductible ventures such as training programmes - or I pay a directors loan into another business.
GI may well have got the club for a pittance, BUT they have put a lot of money into the club so far, increased budget, paying off the old management, paying Bath City, new signings etc
This money has come from somewhere and presumably, it's not from the money fairy but from their own companies and other investors, my guess is that the thinking is similar to mine (but with much larger numbers) inasmuch as 40% of their profits have to go somewhere!
Either: 1 the government gets the dosh or, 2 it gets invested in the hope of it showing a return in the future - option 1 is dead money (as far as they're concerned) option 2 it's a gamble but the ROI could be very worthwhile.
Personally, I would put energy into a new project but if it didn't yield a return within a set period of time then I'd walk away so long as I didn't spend more than I would have paid elsewhere - as in paying a higher rate tax.
I may be totally wrong, and I am often am, but it's a possibility?

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