Guardian Article On Torquay

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merse btpir
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Post by merse btpir »

SenorDingDong wrote: 17 Apr 2017, 13:59 Shocking from the Herald Express, actively trying to stifle debate!
Par for the course for the Herald Excuse ~ I've been blocked from commenting on there for years!
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Post by standupsitdown »

SenorDingDong wrote: 17 Apr 2017, 13:59 Looks like they've disabled comments on the article! Sad!

Usually the comment box is at the bottom of the article but it's entirely missing from the article on the club's statement. Note also that the comments box is still there on the ''Torquay United in an awful situation' article, so this isn't a site wide thing, they've specifically done it on that article.

Shocking from the Herald Express, actively trying to stifle debate!
Shocking indeed. A conspiracy?
I've posted my comment with the 'awful situation' piece. An awful situation it is but in more than one way.
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Post by merse btpir »

That's the way to do it; circumvent their censor's blue pencil policy.

Anyone who takes this tatty rag seriously is deluded, naïve and stupid........on a par with their so called journalists
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Post by Orange Gull »

That's a terrible article from the HE, all Thomas has done is copy and paste the statement on the club's website. He hasn't done anything in terms of investigation. This isn't journalism, it's acting as the club's press officer. Disgraceful.
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Post by westyorkshiregull »

What's changed with HE since Roberts days ....brown envelopes or just can't be bothered anymore ...or just policital ...
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Post by PaulBreen »

Well done Alan Merson on getting this into the mainstream media.
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Post by Enzo »

When posters across the three main TUFC websites such as Merse, Southampton Gull, Jon and CP Gull raise concerns with the current administration then you know something is wrong. Agree with them or not, you can't argue with their insight into the internal workings of TUFC. It is good to see Torquay fans unite together at this time - we need to. That said, I am no journalist, but I have to admit I was surprised that a paper such as the Guardian would go to print with such a one-sided and, what would appear to be, unverified article. Don't get me wrong, this is not a criticism of any individual - I am all for raising awareness of our plight and I think that GI's communication with fans has been dreadful since they took over, but a fair bit of this article raises questions about the previous owners and current manager rather than GI. Therein lies one of the issues I have with the growing chasm between TUFC's owners and us fans - I am told by a person who knows a thing or two about TUFC's accounts, who has no affiliation to GI, that without them we would have gone bust in January. The doors would have been shut! The other potential buyers had had more than enough time to put forward a credible bid. It didn't come. As uneasy as this situation is, do we have a choice? I don't trust GI, I don't like Osborne and I hate these awful stage managed You Tube 'Q and A' sessions with the club poodle asking carefully selected questions, but I'd rather TUFC existed in some way, whatever league that is in, than not at all. I am a paid up member of the trust and would contribute more money if a supporter owned club was a viable alternative. I know there have been pages and pages dedicated to this subject, and from the sounds of it the trust was never really given a chance, but exactly what is the alternative if GI walk away at the end of the season?

Anyway, back to the article and the club response. I hadn't realised until it was spelt out in the response exactly how many players had come in to the club since January. It was a real shame about Racine, but I would have to question Nicho's judgement on Harrad and one or two other signings and the use of the players we already had. Unless he is a freebie Harrad was a waste of vital funds. From today's performance we may have had the answer in the building for a while with the combination of Williams and Keating up front. Again, one would have to question Nicho (and the player himself) on why we haven't seen the Williams we saw today all season. Did Keating really have to wait so long to be fully utilised? That said, it is shameful that we are playing the run in with effectively half a bench. Any shannanigans with Nicho's payment plan in order to allow further additions as the deadline passed really do undermine any confidence that GI actually give a toss which league we are in.

For many of the criticisms of the current situation, GI can easily blame the previous regime (s). I don't know the answer to this, but have players had to use their own cars to travel to away games since GI took over? I know players drove to Bromley, but I gather this was their choice? Have the players been able to have overnight accommodation for the appropriate matches since GI took over? Again, I don't know the answer either way. If the player mentioned in the article who had to go and do bouncer duties was Exodus then we can hardly use that as a stick to beat GI with? The previous regime seem to have made some really poor decisions - Nicho and Robbie on three year contracts?? Unheard of surely for a club in our position, the season ticket fiasco which meant we ran out of money at Christmas (would have been earlier without the Angus money)and the doomed music festival. I feel bad criticising them as they just seem to be fans like myself who were prepared to put their money into the club. Without them we would have likely folded, which kind of demonstrates that there does not appear to be anyone / group out there who are willing to save the club for reasons other than profit from property.

Until Osborne / GI face the issue with the ground head on they can never be trusted. I'd like Osborne to acknowledge what happened with Eastville and the stadiums in Reading and Milton Keynes and explain why Torquay and Plainmoor will be any different. Has he done this? Have I missed it? If he is not able to do this then something is wrong. By all means crack on and build a stadium and worry about the freehold after you have demonstrated that the long term interests of TUFC are at least as important as your profit from property. These stage managed questions sessions are not increasing trust and a fans forum broadcast on You tube will allow for genuine questions and analysis to take place. As I said earlier in the post Osborne's / GI's public relations since taking over have been shocking and given the impression that they simply do not give a toss. At least this article has forced something out of them - however poorly thought out.

I'm not sure what I am saying with this rather rambling post - today there were 2,500 people who care passionately about the club, with a small army of volunteers who are prepared to assist in other ways. Is a supporter run club genuinely viable? I don't think Gulls fans have demonstrated that we can do it in the way that City fans did. That is not meant as a criticism of the TUST leadership, but of the wider TUFC fan base. It is such a shame that this has been allowed to happen, but I am not convinced that there is a current alternative to Osborne and GI. Somebody tell me otherwise please!
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Post by merse btpir »

Enzo wrote: 17 Apr 2017, 20:22 I am told by a person who knows a thing or two about TUFC's accounts, who has no affiliation to GI, that without them we would have gone bust in January. The doors would have been shut! The other potential buyers had had more than enough time to put forward a credible bid. It didn't come. As uneasy as this situation is, do we have a choice? I don't trust GI, I don't like Osborne and I hate these awful stage managed You Tube 'Q and A' sessions with the club poodle asking carefully selected questions, but I'd rather TUFC existed in some way, whatever league that is in, than not at all. I am a paid up member of the trust and would contribute more money if a supporter owned club was a viable alternative. I know there have been pages and pages dedicated to this subject, and from the sounds of it the trust was never really given a chance, but exactly what is the alternative if GI walk away at the end of the season?
..... I am not convinced that there is a current alternative to Osborne and GI. Somebody tell me otherwise please!
Sorry to 'brutalise' your considered posting Enzo into two small parts but in the interests of focus I would say this:

The doors definitely would have shut had GI not taken possession of the club but that was more to do with the failed strategy of Dave Phillips and Merv Balson than anything else. They thought that by reaching an agreement of confidentiality with TUST and then deciding to approach the council for an agreement in principal to sell the freehold behind their backs, they were making the club more attractive to other interested parties but in the even they were caught with their trousers down; ran out of time and lost their co-lateral (shares in the football club) to the lenders.

Some have offered the opinion that GI 'phished' Phillips but I will leave you to decide for yourself on that.

If GI 'walk away' at the end of the season one would hope they would see this as a capital venture to be sold on rather than liquidated at great cost to themselves..time will tell
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Post by Jerry »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/201 ... t-torquay/

"Meanwhile at Torquay, things are bleaker still. Since the club were taken over by Clarke Osborne, a serial club owner with an eye to real estate deals, they have been poised, unless things suddenly start going better, ready to be evicted from the National League into the boondocks beyond, a semi-professional twilight existence for what was once a vibrant, self-sustaining league staple."

"One thing we can guarantee about the sorry mess is that at Coventry, Orient and Torquay when the wrecking ball incompetents inevitably move on, it will be the supporters rattling buckets to save what is left of the institutions they love."
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Post by merse btpir »

It is important ~ and something that the club ownership don't want the supporters or councillors to know ~ that everyone is au fait with the sequence of events that led to their assuming ownership of the club in December........

We can all clearly see that GI’s initial and ongoing primary interest is the Plainmoor freehold.  

Clarke Osborne’s argument for better facilities completely ignores the fact that Plainmoor is already and easily Football League standard with all the (under used) facilities within a stadium he is arguing for. Facilities other than that would and could be sourced and located elsewhere; say at a training and academy centre. Parking is available and there is a pay and display car park opposite the ground perfectly adequate for corporate events and in this day and age should we be really be promoting people going to football and not using public transport? Isn't professional football the very occasion that the bus company's should be using to utilise their service potential? All over the country we have new stadiums coming into use with the proviso that public transport is prioritised over the car and yet in Torbay it has to be different. If the town of Dartford (for instance) can utilise that module, then so can Torquay..........No; I don't agree with that at all.

Even on the rare occasion of there being 4000+ at Plainmoor, is traffic and parking such an issue?


My question to Clarke Osborne on TUTV last week is relevant as GI walked away in July (not before putting the club in debt to them) and then 'miraculously' reappeared as saviours in December, but neither did Osborne want to fully answer my question as to how that came about nor was Tim Herbert  brave enough to challenge him to quantify his answer.

Enquiries have discovered that during September/October 2016, instead of working with TUST to find a solution to the secured loan that was ominously nearing its payback date; the board of Dave Phillips, Merv Balson and Harry Kerswell were instead negotiating with the council to commit to the sale of Plainmoor's freehold.  Having achieved this commitment they dismissed TUST, preferring to use the council's commitment to sell the freehold in order to attract other investors, who either would not or could not meet the asking price; and one can only assume that the terms of the GI loan  were so draconian that they simply walked away allowing to GI to walk back in and take the club off their hands because those potential buyers were scared off by the terms of the GI loan; leaving them with an empty table.

The cloak of secrecy that surrounds the way the council have handled this sale makes you wonder if there has been a concerted joint effort to keep everyone at bay while the sale was pushed through; and regardless of Clarke Osborne’s ‘political’ reassurances; GI’s primary interest from the start has been, and continues to be the freehold. If you don’t believe me, listen to all his reported and video interviews since he was invited to Plainmoor earlier this season.

It is not a level playing field that the trust ~ who are the only body of people in whom the supporters can have absolute faith ~ are fighting on; and when people read the baloney contained in the club statement on the OS followed up by the lap-dog response from the Herald Express seeking to create an ogre in me and thus create a smokescreen at the same time; they need to take that into account.
Last edited by merse btpir on 17 Apr 2017, 23:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Southampton Gull »

You can carry on being the ogre, I'm free now to sit back and let you take all the flak ;-)
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Post by tomogull »

Jerry wrote: 17 Apr 2017, 22:25 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/201 ... t-torquay/

"Meanwhile at Torquay, things are bleaker still. Since the club were taken over by Clarke Osborne, a serial club owner with an eye to real estate deals, they have been poised, unless things suddenly start going better, ready to be evicted from the National League into the boondocks beyond, a semi-professional twilight existence for what was once a vibrant, self-sustaining league staple."

"One thing we can guarantee about the sorry mess is that at Coventry, Orient and Torquay when the wrecking ball incompetents inevitably move on, it will be the supporters rattling buckets to save what is left of the institutions they love."
There is a good response from a football fan to the Telegraph article as follows -

The fact that traditional clubs like Leyton Orient and Torquay United could disappear into the regional wilderness (it is not yet certain that Leyton Orient will even be admitted to the 5th national tier when their inevitable relegation from the Football League is confirmed) is a sad indication of the way that football is going.

The case of Torquay United in particular should be a wake up call to many. Seriously mismanaged at board level for several seasons and now, through their at best naivety, in the hands of property speculators who seem to be more interested in the potential development of the land on which their stadium is built (prime, residential development potential) than in which division they play, should be a wake up call to everyone who still believes in "their" football club. Money talks - even this far down the pyramid! Do the Premier League or Football League care!? It seems not!
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Post by Gullscorer »

Merse has it spot on. I always wondered why Clark Osborne was so insistent that acquiring the freehold of Plainmoor was part of his future plans for the club when at the same time he was guaranteeing a brand new stadium. Why did he not pursue plans to acquire land for the new stadium instead of deciding to use the money to buy Plainmoor's freehold? The answer must be clear to everyone. He has no plans for a new stadium. But it seems he does have plans for Plainmoor (a five year plan?) which don't, in the long term, include football.

For professional football to be sustainable at a club such as Torquay, it is essential that any investment first and foremost be used to achieve success on the field and gain at least a couple of promotions for the club. All else will follow in tandem: from revenue streams to increased crowds to new stadium. If the club fails on the pitch, as it has been doing, nothing else will succeed.

G.I.'s past record in such matters does not bode well for the club. And the experience of other clubs from Brighton to Reading to Orient to Coventry to Hereford to Truro must serve as a warning. If we are wrong, then Osborne must prove his future intentions. Otherwise, he cannot expect to be trusted. But if supporters' suspicions prove to be correct, then he must know that he will have the mother of all football business battles on his hands.
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Post by tomogull »

Gullscorer wrote: 17 Apr 2017, 23:29 Merse has it spot on. I always wondered why Clark Osborne was so insistent that acquiring the freehold of Plainmoor was part of his future plans for the club when at the same time he was guaranteeing a brand new stadium. Why did he not pursue plans to acquire land for the new stadium instead of deciding to use the money to buy Plainmoor's freehold? The answer must be clear to everyone. He has no plans for a new stadium. But it seems he does have plans for Plainmoor (a five year plan?) which don't, in the long term, include football.

For professional football to be sustainable at a club such as Torquay, it is essential that any investment first and foremost be used to achieve success on the field and gain at least a couple of promotions for the club. All else will follow in tandem: from revenue streams to increased crowds to new stadium. If the club fails on the pitch, as it has been doing, nothing else will succeed.

G.I.'s past record in such matters does not bode well for the club. And the experience of other clubs from Brighton to Reading to Orient to Coventry to Hereford to Truro must serve as a warning. If we are wrong, then Osborne must prove his future intentions. Otherwise, he cannot expect to be trusted. But if supporters' suspicions prove to be correct, then he must know that he will have the mother of all football business battles on his hands.
Good post Gullscorer. The piece in the Guardian article that hit home for me was Michael Golbourne's statement -
“Should the freehold be sold to anyone it loses the protection of the council,” he says. “The ground can then be sold, mortgaged or forfeit for debt. Companies fall into administration all the time and the dangers to the club and the community far outweigh any short-term financial gain from selling the freehold. The ramification is the loss of our home.

I'd thought of the risk of the land being developed or TUFC being charged an increased rental, but I hadn't thought of the ground being mortgaged or forfeited for debt. As you rightly post, let them acquire the land and build a new stadium BEFORE they think about purchasing the freehold of Plainmoor.
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Post by merse btpir »

I think the comments of GI's Bill Glass on Sky Sports greyhound coverage recently said it all...something along the line of they (GI) always try to keep the sport running 'as long as possible' ~ how long is that in Plainmoor's/Torquay United's case ; five years?
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