Is a new Stadium financially viable?

[Zippy]

just my thoughts mellow, its a forum mate, entitled to my say matey.

[merse btpir]

its a forum mate, entitled to my say matey.

Exactly; a forum not a totalitarian cheerleading enterprise ~ let the guy have his say and shoot down his arguments but don't try to censor him

[standupsitdown]

I think the issue is more, would be get a new stadium.
There are pros & cons of moving (I'm firmly against) but the immediate concern is that GI will get the freehold to Plainmoor and fail to provide a new stadium. That would be the end and we cannot allow it to happen.

[merse btpir]

Exactly; the concept of a new stadium is both years away and far behind the importance of council officials having 'off the record' discussions with GI which goes on in local bureaucracy all the time and is far removed from democracy and the freehold being sold to someone ~ not only Gaming International ~ whilst the general public sit idly by impervious to the real issues.

THAT is the number one issue right now because if anything like that is allowed to slip through in Torquay United's case it would almost certainly kill the club off and everything else becomes irrelevant.

[hector]

I agree with the TUST stance on this.

If GI want to build a new stadium, then just go ahead and do it? They do not need Plainmoor.

In terms of comparing the cost of building a new stadium, preparing the land that once was a tip, to ensure it's safe to use etc and all associated costs, versus the value of the Plainmoor plot, is perhaps neutral. I don't know.

However, would there be enough profit for a company like GI to be bothering themselves for? I don't know.

However, selling Plainmoor, shutting down the football club and not building a new stadium clearly would ensure enormous profit.

Which is more likely?

[Southampton Gull]

Zippy you sound like a GI spokeperson. A new stadium would be great in different circumstances. But we are dealing with Riviera Stadium Limited (a subsidiary of Gaming International Limited). Look back at the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) 24 March 2016 in relation to their potential takeover of the Football Club.

It was "concluded that for the Club to survive and flourish under their ownership, they require confidence in the position with Torbay Council for Torquay United to have the option to purchase the freehold of Plainmoor, and advance a potential site away from Plainmoor for a new football and event arena".

It does not say they will build a new stadium just "advance a potential site away from Plainmoor". In other words GI can get on with building houses on the Plainmoor site without having a stadium in place.

The Council will give the ground to GI in good faith with a legally binding (section 106) to tie GI to the delivery of a new stadium, but GI will indefinitely delay the new stadium due to 'unforseen circumstances' (e.g. not financially viable) and then deliberately force the club into being wound up or ground share having got what they wanted out of the deal.

So unless you have some substantial reasoning (other than sound bites) to thinking that GI's promises of new stadium is a good deal Zippy - Zip it!

Not a good post..................a GREAT post!!

[merse btpir]

I agree with the TUST stance on this. If GI want to build a new stadium, then just go ahead and do it? They do not need Plainmoor.

Well it doesn't help our cause; but I'm afraid that is not necessarily the case.....

The freehold of Plainmoor (if they can obtain it) will be put up as co-lateral to obtain the fiscal/commercial investment to fund the building of a new stadium ~ that's how it normally works in these cases.

If you look at the Truro situation, the idea was that the developers of Treyew Road would use that co-lateral to build the Silver Bow project but with the inevitable delays incurred the capital sum has more than trebled and so they have now said it is not viable.

That's why Hellical and Masters have been trying to prevent the other development that is funding S4C because it is taking away their potential to attract tenants into the proposed Treyew Retail Park thus rendering their scheme more and more impossible to achieve.

[Rjc70]

Zippy you sound like a GI spokeperson. A new stadium would be great in different circumstances. But we are dealing with Riviera Stadium Limited (a subsidiary of Gaming International Limited). Look back at the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) 24 March 2016 in relation to their potential takeover of the Football Club.

It was "concluded that for the Club to survive and flourish under their ownership, they require confidence in the position with Torbay Council for Torquay United to have the option to purchase the freehold of Plainmoor, and advance a potential site away from Plainmoor for a new football and event arena".

It does not say they will build a new stadium just "advance a potential site away from Plainmoor". In other words GI can get on with building houses on the Plainmoor site without having a stadium in place.

The Council will give the ground to GI in good faith with a legally binding (section 106) to tie GI to the delivery of a new stadium, but GI will indefinitely delay the new stadium due to 'unforseen circumstances' (e.g. not financially viable) and then deliberately force the club into being wound up or ground share having got what they wanted out of the deal.

Forget the collateral freehold red herring. You can offer that with a long lease. They have promised new stadia and operated under leasehold at other locations.

[Rjc70]

I agree with the TUST stance on this.

If GI want to build a new stadium, then just go ahead and do it? They do not need Plainmoor.

In terms of comparing the cost of building a new stadium, preparing the land that once was a tip, to ensure it's safe to use etc and all associated costs, versus the value of the Plainmoor plot, is perhaps neutral. I don't know.

However, would there be enough profit for a company like GI to be bothering themselves for? I don't know.

However, selling Plainmoor, shutting down the football club and not building a new stadium clearly would ensure enormous profit.

Which is more likely?

[MellowYellow]

I agree with the TUST stance on this.

If GI want to build a new stadium, then just go ahead and do it? They do not need Plainmoor.

In terms of comparing the cost of building a new stadium, preparing the land that once was a tip, to ensure it's safe to use etc and all associated costs, versus the value of the Plainmoor plot, is perhaps neutral. I don't know.

However, would there be enough profit for a company like GI to be bothering themselves for? I don't know.

However, selling Plainmoor, shutting down the football club and not building a new stadium clearly would ensure enormous profit.

Which is more likely?

below are some construction costs for proposed new stadium complexes and each of these is running into difficulties. Considering GI cant afford a journeyman striker for £350 a week to help keep us in the National League what chance of them forking out £30/40 million on a new Stadium for 400 fans to watch Southern League football every fortnight. Ok they might claim to build a sport complex and hotel but I think it is It is evident, even to a donkey, that there is no return in investment for such a scheme. Think of what rent GI would want to charge Torquay given their initial outlay and then think of our potential gate revenue in the Southern League i.e. approx. £84,000 per annum. 400 x£10 x 21 home games. Nothing adds up!

Scarbrourgh ( capacity 2,000) Construction cost, £22 million
Lincoln City ( capacity 10,000) Construction cost, £30 million
York City (capacity 8,000) Construction cost, £44 million (share with Rugby League Club)
Bristol Rovers ( capacity 20,000 Construction cost, £50 million
Grimsby ( capacity 14,000) Construction cost, £55 million

[Yorkieandy]

The new Scarborough ground at Weaponness isn't in difficulty. It's being built as we speak and I've had a look at the site on a number of occasions. Season tickets are on sale for next season's opening campaign. Slightly surprised that it's only a 2,000 capacity. Fine for now but in the future the need for a few thousand more may become an issue but I guess they aren't learning to run before they can walk which is what TUFC did with the building of the bench when more pressing matters were at hand.

York will share the proposed new community stadium but IMO it won't be built. The council are skint and are delaying and delaying and the new complex which by now should have seen York just finishing their second season in it hasn't even had any work done on it yet. There have been objections and God knows what else on top of the football club and rugby clubs both looking at various points like they are going to go POP! at any point. Traditionally even when doing reasonably well, the crowds at York remain pretty poor. There is more chance of that stadium being built than Torquay having one built and as Torquay won't be having one built then you get the idea.

Can't comment on the others mentioned other than the other 3 certainly have scope with having big fanbases and would be more viable.

[Neal]

At least we are in the main starting to agree where a few months ago there were still a number vehemently supporting GI. We dont agree on the next move. Im for boycotting now and I dont see much support for that, which I think is dissapointing. We are then relying on Nick Bye whatever he is called. Im surprised one official has that sort of power.

[merse btpir]

The Mayor of Torbay is Gordon Oliver Neal; it was Bye, Bye to Nick at the last election..........he's still a councillor though

[SenorDingDong]

We are then relying on Nick Bye whatever he is called. Im surprised one official has that sort of power.

Best get used to it, more and more city areas in the UK are going to be getting elected mayors in the near future. The mayor of Manchester will be particularly powerful, having far more powers than Torbay's, including control over large swathes of the local NHS.

Torbay voted for one because people were fed up with the constant bickering, anti-development agenda, get nothing done ways of the former Torbay Council. The problem that the new system has run into is that it's only two role holders have been non-entities, Nick Bye talked the talk but didn't produce very much of anything beyond signing an awful commercial deal with the balloon guys; whereas Gordon Oliver is the personification of the inept local political system, having been involved within it since the 80s. It requires a politically savvy candidate with experience of business and attracting investment to be a good regional mayor, who genuinely wants to do well rather than just help his cronies, unfortunately Torbay hasn't produced anyone of that nature in years and the mayors have to work with councillors, a few aside (Sanders, Julian Parrot, Tom Winfield - a rare young face on the council) who have been in the system for a long time and are part of the problem.

I highly doubt Oliver has been to one United match of his own free will, so he's a dangerous man in this situation, people need to put pressure on him and make him very clear of what is being done by GI and what the consequences are. Let us not forget that Oliver was heavily involved in the ridiculous situation over Oldway Mansion, which gives you some idea of his competence in this field.

[merse btpir]

You sum it up well SenorDingDong; the old guard Establishment have merely re-incarnated themselves within the new system but reactionary old Torbay is going back to the old system soon.......and they reckon the Jurassic Coast ends just along the shoreline!