New Share Issue In Torquay United F. C.

Forest gull · Post by **Forest gull** » 27 Aug 2016, 00:19

Id buy some shares

chunkygull · Post by **chunkygull** » 27 Aug 2016, 00:48

I think a helluva lot of the fanbase would, much more than would contribute to a player fund and much more than would go for the TUST model.

gullpower · Post by **gullpower** » 27 Aug 2016, 09:26

I would be reluctant to buy shares that did not in some small way give me a say in the decision making at the club.

As I understand it, it is being suggested that fans buy non-voting shares, their investment being recouped if/when the club is sold.

The Supporters Direct model of fan ownership is a proven method of fans investing in their club and having an influence on the decision making, whereas the purchase of non-voting shares would not.

I recommend Punk Football: The Rise of Fan Ownership in English Football by Jim Keoghan as a must read. Even if you are not an advocate of fan ownership there is enough in this book on the history of the game and the mismanagement of owners to make you not want to put it down. It also gives a balanced view of the subject, the pitfalls as well as the advantages. Of course all Gulls fans should rip out the chapter on The Scum.

chunkygull · Post by **chunkygull** » 27 Aug 2016, 11:29

I see your point, originally I thought fans might be content with non voting shares and just be happy to be a part of the club whilst helping put it on a more stable financial footing, lets face it there are quite a few happy to hand over a charitable no say donation to the players fund. However you are right and the only way you could get people interested is to make them voting shares and give them a say in the running of the club.

As on another thread explains about Hearts selling the club bit by bit to the fans, why cant this be done by TUFC, the board are fans, we are all fans, we all want the club to remain solvent but safe. Like in any organisation the more shares you have the more say and sway you have, so for example Thea would still be a major shareholder, the board would still remain the board and if anybody reached the magic 30k then they take a seat at the table. It cant be too difficult surely. Or is the giving others a say in the running of things the reason why the board wont do this . Is it the animal farm analogy again.

Like I said, it could cetainly generate fan ownership and much needed funds for TUFC much faster than TUST or waiting for another one of us to win the lottery.

SteveDeckchair · Post by **SteveDeckchair** » 27 Aug 2016, 11:39

Let's be clear here. A share issue relating to ownership should not be confused with revenue raising schemes such as the player fund.

chunkygull · Post by **chunkygull** » 27 Aug 2016, 12:05

Not getting anything confused at all. I'm saying a share scheme would bring about a version of fan ownership or at the least a stake and a say in the club, whilst pumping in much needed revenue to help the club remain stable. Instead of asking for a charitable donation, issue shares for money, there would be a lot more interest and monies raised.

Reading various forums and talking to people there are some who have got fed up with the lack of transparency, the whole GI saga and all the shenanigans surrounding TUFC. Supporters have pulled their donations from the fund, some have said without any say they arent giving the club a bean anymore. I heard people say last season when being asked to give money after paying an admission fee, buying a programme or merchandise etc "what a bloody cheek", in fact that was the most polite phrase.

See Hectors post which I quoted earlier. Pretty much sums it up.

Its been hard work getting people to join TUST, so if the club need funds why cant this sort of scheme be set up, it is more direct and helps the club whilst making the supporters part of it. It would bring the club closer to its supporters and possibly gain more interest in the community. I am convinced it is a way forward if our current board would do it.

fred disley · Post by **fred disley** » 27 Aug 2016, 21:03

By the time this idea gets off the ground we will either be dead and buried or top of the premiership. While I totally support the idea of helping the club by what ever method you choose. SHARE OWNERSHIP, whats the point, they are either, non voting stock, so giving your money to TUST, the players fund or just a donation to the club, it will have the same effect and the same amount of return,i.e. NIL.
Or voting stock, You get a vote, you get access, you get an element of power, the club will not tolerate this for various reasons, one , you get to see whats happening behind closed doors, you can ask to see the books as a shareholder (that would be worth the investment alone) but more importantly it would cause anarchy at the club, just look at the diverse and disagreeing views on this platform , we cant get four people in a row to agree can you imagine 100 shareholders arguing at every board meeting.
Additionally, I think a percentage of those who expressed a supporting interest in this idea would stop giving by the other agreed routes after all we are not made of money , also while I think of it, what guarantee do you have that any or all the money you give through a share purchase would go to the core of the club, actually none at all.

gateman49 · Post by **gateman49** » 27 Aug 2016, 22:19

I raised this subject at a fans' forum about a year ago. Steve Breed said good idea, I heard nothing else on the subject.

chunkygull · Post by **chunkygull** » 28 Aug 2016, 14:08

fred disley wrote:By the time this idea gets off the ground we will either be dead and buried or top of the premiership. While I totally support the idea of helping the club by what ever method you choose. SHARE OWNERSHIP, whats the point, they are either, non voting stock, so giving your money to TUST, the players fund or just a donation to the club, it will have the same effect and the same amount of return,i.e. NIL.
Or voting stock, You get a vote, you get access, you get an element of power, the club will not tolerate this for various reasons, one , you get to see whats happening behind closed doors, you can ask to see the books as a shareholder (that would be worth the investment alone) but more importantly it would cause anarchy at the club, just look at the diverse and disagreeing views on this platform , we cant get four people in a row to agree can you imagine 100 shareholders arguing at every board meeting.
Additionally, I think a percentage of those who expressed a supporting interest in this idea would stop giving by the other agreed routes after all we are not made of money , also while I think of it, what guarantee do you have that any or all the money you give through a share purchase would go to the core of the club, actually none at all.

I see some of your points, its not straightforward, but if the club needs investment and are not against fan ownership then this is the only way I see it can happen. This would get the fanbase on board far quicker than TUST have managed and raise far more revenue than the charitable donations of the players fund, therefore neither would be needed anymore.

The point you made about you get a vote, you get power etc, well it works in exactly that way at the clubs that are fan owned surely. Isnt that how TUST works, you put your money in and all members have a vote and say, it neednt be anarchy if done right. Its just with the shares idea you are cutting out TUST and giving the money direct to the club with a bit in return. I am not knocking TUST but at the rate it has been going it would take a lot longer to buy the club or take over the running of it than the time your opening line suggests would take a share scheme to get off the ground.

As I said, this idea would raise much needed funds whilst being more palatable to many than just handing money over into a player fund, it would make people feel closer to the club and give it a greater community feel, this would be the closest thing to fan ownership we will ever get. Surely it is an idea worth exploring, it must be easier for the board to ask a large amount of people for relatively small amounts of money, rather than a small amount of people for large amounts of money.

gullpower · Post by **gullpower** » 29 Aug 2016, 08:39

I have nailed my TUST colours firmly to the mast on this thread and I can see the logic of the last paragraph of the post above.

However, I'm certain that if supporter ownership became a realistic possibility fans would join to invest. I was with two life long die hard Gulls fans last night, neither are members of TUST but they would invest in the club given the chance.

Post by **happytorq** » 29 Aug 2016, 15:44

chunkygull wrote: I am not knocking TUST but at the rate it has been going it would take a lot longer to buy the club or take over the running of it than the time your opening line suggests would take a share scheme to get off the ground.

Why has uptake for TUST been slow? Is it perhaps that there's an apathy in the fan base for the current structure of TUST, or simply that our fanbase is not big enough to support it? ) I don't know how many members TUST has now but I think for it to be a viable partner in the future you'd need something at least approaching the average home attendance, maybe 2000 members

Plainmoor78 · Post by **Plainmoor78** » 29 Aug 2016, 18:11

I think I remember reading somewhere that football trust membership take up is around 15% to 20% of a clubs average crowd, so TUST are doing as well as can be expected in that matter. That said I think the membership fee of £2 a month is too low. The TUST will never be able to build up an adequate fighting fund in a reasonable space of time and this may be why some fans do not take it seriously.

gullpower · Post by **gullpower** » 29 Aug 2016, 21:23

Plainmoor78 wrote:I think I remember reading somewhere that football trust membership take up is around 15% to 20% of a clubs average crowd, so TUST are doing as well as can be expected in that matter. That said I think the membership fee of £2 a month is too low. The TUST will never be able to build up an adequate fighting fund in a reasonable space of time and this may be why some fans do not take it seriously.

£2 is a nominal fee. Members also contribute through donations and the lottery.

fred disley · Post by **fred disley** » 31 Aug 2016, 15:45

I am a TUST member, I support their long term aims, but could they walk in and run the club ,The gulf between a group of enthusiastic and committed individuals that are the TUST and successfully running a multi million pound enterprise is massive and not to be underestimated.
My biggest reservation to community ownership is the success factor, or lack of it, in terms of on the field activity. I have spent far too much time recently researching the community ownership principle, there are no stand out success stories , Darlington, Chester, Exeter, Wimbledon and Portsmouth,all are finding life very difficult, I know Wimbledon got promoted last year but by their own fans comments they cannot compete in division one because they do not have the revenue to attract division one players.
If any of you can bear to type the words Exeter fans forum, then be brave and have a look, those that post on this site and I am not saying they are a majority, hate being community owned and one thread that gets more than its fair share of coverage is the lack of information supplied by the trust on the running of the club, an instance being the three million they got for Ashley Grimes, none of which has gone back to the playing budget, this theme seems to ring a bell with our club.
In the short term, a seat on the board would be a very productive start for TUST, whether they go further and make a play for the ownership of the club is open for discussion.

gullpower · Post by **gullpower** » 01 Sep 2016, 10:11

fred disley wrote:I am a TUST member, I support their long term aims, but could they walk in and run the club ,The gulf between a group of enthusiastic and committed individuals that are the TUST and successfully running a multi million pound enterprise is massive and not to be underestimated.
My biggest reservation to community ownership is the success factor, or lack of it, in terms of on the field activity. I have spent far too much time recently researching the community ownership principle, there are no stand out success stories , Darlington, Chester, Exeter, Wimbledon and Portsmouth,all are finding life very difficult, I know Wimbledon got promoted last year but by their own fans comments they cannot compete in division one because they do not have the revenue to attract division one players.
If any of you can bear to type the words Exeter fans forum, then be brave and have a look, those that post on this site and I am not saying they are a majority, hate being community owned and one thread that gets more than its fair share of coverage is the lack of information supplied by the trust on the running of the club, an instance being the three million they got for Ashley Grimes, none of which has gone back to the playing budget, this theme seems to ring a bell with our club.
In the short term, a seat on the board would be a very productive start for TUST, whether they go further and make a play for the ownership of the club is open for discussion.

None of the clubs that you have named would exist today without their supporters trusts or the help given from Supporters Direct. With that in mind, although we all want to see our teams succeed, when the prospect of not having your club is a real one then maybe just being able to go and watch them should be enough.

However, you do not mention Swansea City where the supporters trust owns 21% of the club and has 2 directors on the board.

As I have said on another post somewhere on the forum, why when the board are looking for sources of new investment do they ignore TUST? A seat or two on the board, depending on how much TUST raised and invested, would allow TUST to gain some experience in the running the club. As you rightly point out, the gulf between a group of committed fans running a supporters trust and running a multi million pound enterprise is massive. This is why trusts that have bought clubs as the purchaser of last resort have made mistakes and why it makes sense for David Phillips and the board to allow TUST to invest much needed money in the club and at the same time gain valuable experience in its running.

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