Torquay v Hartlepool 28/10/17

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Arrywithnobrain
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Torquay v Hartlepool 28/10/17

Post by Arrywithnobrain » 02 Nov 2017, 13:15

merse btpir wrote:
01 Nov 2017, 17:52
You have a problem with the management already then?
I have no problem with the current management team any more or less than I have had problems with any previous management teams. They all have good and bad points, they have all made decisions with which I disagree and they have all made decisions which I thought to be correct. I just follow football; I don't set myself up as some kind of expert football guru who expects everybody to accept their opinions without question just because they can name-drop and make constant references to their activities in the minor echelons of English football. Consequently I think that Nicholson did not deserve the extensive amount of criticism that he received (and, in some cases, continues to receive) and I also do not think that Owers and Kuhl are necessarily worthy of some of the fulsome praise that is heaped upon them by some people. I am not so far up their collective fundament that I wholeheartedly concur with everything that they do and say: they may or may not prevent Torquay from being relegated this season but their record to date at Torquay is at best average (8 points and 2 Cup defeats from 10 matches, with 9 of those games producing a total of 3 goals for, is arguably some way short of average, particularly as, despite Owers/Kuhl seemingly tightening the defence, they have still conceded goals in 7 matches). The 10 matches under the management of Nicholson and/or Herrera include only 3 games where Torquay failed to score (2 of which were 0-0 draws with two of the "biggest" clubs in the National League) so there has been little significant improvement under the new management team, as the perceived defensive improvement is counter-balanced by the diminishment in goals scored.


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Post by Yorkieandy » 02 Nov 2017, 14:34

Arrywithnobrain wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 13:15
merse btpir wrote:
01 Nov 2017, 17:52
You have a problem with the management already then?
I have no problem with the current management team any more or less than I have had problems with any previous management teams. They all have good and bad points, they have all made decisions with which I disagree and they have all made decisions which I thought to be correct. I just follow football; I don't set myself up as some kind of expert football guru who expects everybody to accept their opinions without question just because they can name-drop and make constant references to their activities in the minor echelons of English football. Consequently I think that Nicholson did not deserve the extensive amount of criticism that he received (and, in some cases, continues to receive) and I also do not think that Owers and Kuhl are necessarily worthy of some of the fulsome praise that is heaped upon them by some people. I am not so far up their collective fundament that I wholeheartedly concur with everything that they do and say: they may or may not prevent Torquay from being relegated this season but their record to date at Torquay is at best average (8 points and 2 Cup defeats from 10 matches, with 9 of those games producing a total of 3 goals for, is arguably some way short of average, particularly as, despite Owers/Kuhl seemingly tightening the defence, they have still conceded goals in 7 matches). The 10 matches under the management of Nicholson and/or Herrera include only 3 games where Torquay failed to score (2 of which were 0-0 draws with two of the "biggest" clubs in the National League) so there has been little significant improvement under the new management team, as the perceived defensive improvement is counter-balanced by the diminishment in goals scored.
Superb post. Agree with every word.

Owers and Kuhl have improved the side but nowhere near enough so as it stands they are failing big time. They were brought in to get results and they aren't really doing that.

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Post by Southampton Gull » 02 Nov 2017, 17:42

Arrywithnobrain wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 13:15
merse btpir wrote:
01 Nov 2017, 17:52
You have a problem with the management already then?
I have no problem with the current management team any more or less than I have had problems with any previous management teams. They all have good and bad points, they have all made decisions with which I disagree and they have all made decisions which I thought to be correct. I just follow football; I don't set myself up as some kind of expert football guru who expects everybody to accept their opinions without question just because they can name-drop and make constant references to their activities in the minor echelons of English football. Consequently I think that Nicholson did not deserve the extensive amount of criticism that he received (and, in some cases, continues to receive) and I also do not think that Owers and Kuhl are necessarily worthy of some of the fulsome praise that is heaped upon them by some people. I am not so far up their collective fundament that I wholeheartedly concur with everything that they do and say: they may or may not prevent Torquay from being relegated this season but their record to date at Torquay is at best average (8 points and 2 Cup defeats from 10 matches, with 9 of those games producing a total of 3 goals for, is arguably some way short of average, particularly as, despite Owers/Kuhl seemingly tightening the defence, they have still conceded goals in 7 matches). The 10 matches under the management of Nicholson and/or Herrera include only 3 games where Torquay failed to score (2 of which were 0-0 draws with two of the "biggest" clubs in the National League) so there has been little significant improvement under the new management team, as the perceived defensive improvement is counter-balanced by the diminishment in goals scored.
:goodpost:

All points well made, again ;)
Dave




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Post by tufcyellowarmy » 02 Nov 2017, 23:28

Southampton Gull wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 17:42
Arrywithnobrain wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 13:15
merse btpir wrote:
01 Nov 2017, 17:52
You have a problem with the management already then?
I have no problem with the current management team any more or less than I have had problems with any previous management teams. They all have good and bad points, they have all made decisions with which I disagree and they have all made decisions which I thought to be correct. I just follow football; I don't set myself up as some kind of expert football guru who expects everybody to accept their opinions without question just because they can name-drop and make constant references to their activities in the minor echelons of English football. Consequently I think that Nicholson did not deserve the extensive amount of criticism that he received (and, in some cases, continues to receive) and I also do not think that Owers and Kuhl are necessarily worthy of some of the fulsome praise that is heaped upon them by some people. I am not so far up their collective fundament that I wholeheartedly concur with everything that they do and say: they may or may not prevent Torquay from being relegated this season but their record to date at Torquay is at best average (8 points and 2 Cup defeats from 10 matches, with 9 of those games producing a total of 3 goals for, is arguably some way short of average, particularly as, despite Owers/Kuhl seemingly tightening the defence, they have still conceded goals in 7 matches). The 10 matches under the management of Nicholson and/or Herrera include only 3 games where Torquay failed to score (2 of which were 0-0 draws with two of the "biggest" clubs in the National League) so there has been little significant improvement under the new management team, as the perceived defensive improvement is counter-balanced by the diminishment in goals scored.
:goodpost:

All points well made, again ;)
Completely agree with all points made.
When I said I had reservations about he current management ,I did so with some careful consideration .
It was my view and still is that we needed 7 points from 9 in the matches culminating in the Maidstone game or we would be in a perilous position . We all know that great escapes can happen , but despite an upturn in form ( to a degree) I wasn't buying the notion that we have turned a corner . Despite GO stating that we were no longer rubbish , I take little comfort given the comfortable home defeat we suffered once again.
I well understand that if we beat Maidstone we will have obtained six not 7 of the points I hoped for but I fear given the reality check in the Hartlepool game , we will fall short . If we lose against them then we are deep in cack with a tricky December run to Christmas. We will be staring down the barrel. I so hope I am proved wrong .
Nicho was treated appallingly , and continues to be derided by some who seem to believe that he after 4 games this season had led us to oblivion. That is as utter rubbish.
Let's hope GO and MK can really make us not rubbish by acquiring some badly needed points at the end of a game rather than tightening up the defence for the first 45 mins and acquiring feck all come full time !!!!


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Post by desperado » 04 Nov 2017, 16:14

Owers and Kuhl may only have been here 7 weeks but the pressure is really on them to get some wins soon
50 points seems an incredibly tough ask. 28 games to go, we need for instance 10 wins 9 draws and only 9 defeats
a win and a draw every 3 games, cant see it happening at present


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Post by nickbrod » 04 Nov 2017, 20:51

Keep believing!


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Post by tomogull » 05 Nov 2017, 10:42

wivelgull wrote:
28 Oct 2017, 11:30
I always agree with brucie, Mr. gloster! But why do some people call him Terry?
p.s. tomogull: Whitby Town are at home today in the 1st qualifying round of the FA Trophy (versus Marine). Our recent cup history is worse than United's.
Oh dear, Wivel - you were spot on with that prediction! You will be interested to hear that Ken Brown was the former player who was guest at Plainmoor for the Hartlepool match. Class central defender, as I'm sure you will agree, in Frank O'Farrell's great team of ex-West Ham players when we actually looked forward to going to Plainmoor and enjoyed our football !


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Post by merse btpir » 05 Nov 2017, 11:24

No it wasn't it was a different Ken Brown.

I know the son of the one you are referring to (he was my son's Academy Manager at Dagenham) and he told me his father is now living in an old people's home in Norwich suffering from dementia at the age of 83.


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Post by tomogull » 05 Nov 2017, 11:26

Agree - very good post from Arry. However, it's fine to quote stats but you need to dig behind them a bit. The run of fixtures since Gary Owers was appointed include Macclesfield, Dagenham & R, Dover, Aldershot (cup) and Hartlepool. I know it's a topsy-turvy league this season, but apart from Hartlepool the other four sides are amongst the front runners and they are there for a reason. Also, Hartlepool are on a good run of results after a slow start.

We seem to be better organised and playing at a higher tempo since Owers and Kuhl were appointed but for me the jury is still out. On the plus side, Owers has brought in some useful players - Dowling, Dorrell, Evans & Efete. On the down side, he has brought in arguably this season's two least effective players - Murphy and McQuoid. Don't tell me we missed Murphy for the Hartlepool match. We didn't. We actually had more shots on target without him than we did in the two previous games (Ebbsfleet and Dover) in total. This pair will not get us out of the sh*t we're in. Did anyone see where McQuoid went in the second half against Hartlepool? He might just as well have got showered, changed and gone home at half time for all he contributed in that second half.

This brings me on to two question marks about Gary Owers management. One - good managers learn to work with players who are at the club when appointed and also players they subsequently bring in. I just get the feeling that Owers favours his own signings which is a failure in my opinion. The second question mark - I didn't hear Owers after match report but it was hinted on this thread (or another thread) that he criticised Keating and Higgins. To publicly name players - if he did so - is another sign of poor management in my view, unless a player does something really stupid like getting himself needlessly sent on. And by the way, those who are saying that Keating is not good enough for this league weren't saying that at the end of last season when he was scoring goals and chasing and harrying to create chances for others. Give the lad a break. He's having a lean time at present as all strikers do, but he will come good if given the opportunity.

Another observation from the Hartlepool game - Ryan Higgins was blamed for not closing down the 'Pool winger before he crossed for their first goal. In this three central defenders system that has been introduced (which is well suited to Davis' & Higgins strengths of going forward), Higgins is playing higher up the field and surely cannot be expected to get back to close down the winger? I think Efete should have spotted the danger and moved across to close him down. However, he's a young lad and may not be used to playing in a three-man central defensive system. Any thoughts?


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Post by Swanny » 05 Nov 2017, 11:49

desperado wrote:
04 Nov 2017, 16:14
Owers and Kuhl may only have been here 7 weeks but the pressure is really on them to get some wins soon
50 points seems an incredibly tough ask. 28 games to go, we need for instance 10 wins 9 draws and only 9 defeats
a win and a draw every 3 games, cant see it happening at present
:goodpost: I tried to point this out a few weeks ago on this site and another one and it mainly fell on deaf ears. I will repeat myself again, history tells us we need at least 50 points to survive and to achieve that we need to perform as a top half team. That is the constant for every season whereas the variables are the other teams form around us which you cannot predict. Traditionally some bottom 4 teams get out of trouble and some mid table teams get into trouble. It is a false sense of security just following the teams just above Torquay and thinking 1 or 2 wins will see us out of trouble.

It is like when you run a marathon you do not worry about the other runners around you, you are only focused on your own personal time. You know if you run a decent time you will be out of the bottom pack of runners. Others runners are the variables and may speed up or slow down.

As for Owers and Kurl, I like the professional job they are doing but there has been a load of chopping and changing and results have only marginally improved. Unless we find a striker who can regularly score and have more leadership when we fall a goal down, we will not accumulate enough points and will fall well short. At this point in time we are still long way from putting in the type of form for the rest of the season to survive - that sadly is the reality of the situation. Well done to Desperado for pointing this out.


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Post by merse btpir » 05 Nov 2017, 11:55

tomogull wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 11:26
I didn't hear Owers after match report but it was hinted on this thread (or another thread) that he criticised Keating and Higgins. To publicly name players - if he did so - is another sign of poor management in my view
He didn't refer to anyone by name
tomogull wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 11:26

Another observation from the Hartlepool game - Ryan Higgins was blamed for not closing down the 'Pool winger before he crossed for their first goal. In this three central defenders system that has been introduced (which is well suited to Davis' & Higgins strengths of going forward), Higgins is playing higher up the field and surely cannot be expected to get back to close down the winger? I think Efete should have spotted the danger and moved across to close him down. However, he's a young lad and may not be used to playing in a three-man central defensive system. Any thoughts?
Not a case of Efete 'not spotting the danger' in my view; he quite rightly holds his position because the obvious and most dangerous manoeuvre would have been the man on the ball heading towards getting a shot in and Efete has prevented him doing that. Thus he is quite rightly 'shown' wide and Higgins does everything he should except show more urgency/commitment to stopping that cross ~ it's a trade mark that differentiates between the winners and the losers week in week out and it is matter of mental urgency, determination and fitness of a level to be able to do that...I think that has been generally lacking within the squad pretty much for the whole of the season up until recently when it is looking better.

United hadn't been pushing forward when that happened; and in this system (if they do) then the 'CDM' (central defensive midfielder) should be detailed to cover for the advancing wing-back.

Judge for yourself n this clip ~ relevant from 1 min :29 secs
http://www.thenationalleague.org.uk/mat ... eos/118250


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Post by brucie » 05 Nov 2017, 12:34

Tomogull - he didn't name the players but said that he was fed of seeing goals coming from the same position (seemed directly aimed at Higgins to me) and also said if players didn't take their chance when called upon he would look elsewehere (guess that was aimed at Keating)


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Post by nickbrod » 05 Nov 2017, 12:42

Those of us at the game could see clearly where the weaknesses lie and importantly the Head Coach saw them too. The big question is what can he do to put them right?


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Post by tomogull » 05 Nov 2017, 15:58

brucie wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 12:34
Tomogull - he didn't name the players but said that he was fed of seeing goals coming from the same position (seemed directly aimed at Higgins to me) and also said if players didn't take their chance when called upon he would look elsewehere (guess that was aimed at Keating)
Thanks for putting me right on that Brucie. I didn't hear the post-match interview but picked up on here that he had picked out two players, believed to be Higgins and Keating. Thanks also for video clip, Merse. :-D It proves how memory of what actually happened plays tricks! Clearly, Ryan Higgins should have closed down the winger and there was no blame on Efete.

As i posted after the Dover game where their first goal also came from a left wing cross, this is a weakness in Higgins game which he has to work on. Obviously, there is still work to be done - I suspect it's a case of lack of concentration more than anything else. It's a shame because apart from that error, he had a reasonable game pressing forward. He was also unfortunate because both (Dover and Hartlepool) were very good crosses.


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Post by tomogull » 05 Nov 2017, 16:16

nickbrod wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 12:42
Those of us at the game could see clearly where the weaknesses lie and importantly the Head Coach saw them too. The big question is what can he do to put them right?
As well as veiled criticisms supposedly aimed at two players, I hope the Head Coach also noticed how Callum Evans and Mc Quoid 'disappeared' in the second half. And it wasn't exactly Luke Young's best 94 minutes in a United shirt, either !

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