Torquay United v Maidenhead, Match Day Thread 03/10/17

Matchday topics and fixtures/results stored here.
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Post by tufcyellowarmy »

merse btpir wrote: 01 Oct 2017, 20:37
At the risk of boring a certain poster who is very anti-me, I can tell you that it was Boreham Wood's intention to remain part-time when they won promotion to the National League but realisation set in within weeks of beginning their programme of matches that they would need more time with their players and thus need to turn full-time; and this immediately cost then their manager Ian Allinson who felt unable to justify giving up his job with Carlsberg at the age he was and the salary that job gave him and so he became Director of Football and they appointed his number 2 to manage the club........Allinson subsequently left and went and managed local rivals Saint Albans City on a part-time basis


I was under the impression that Chester made the transition from part-time (3 days a week) to full-time (4 Days a week) in the summer but I might be wrong on that.
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/sport ... e-12220863

Part time these days at the most progressive clubs means training in the day time and doing one's other employment to fit in around that, and as I have already made known many of the part-time players I personally know do not even have a second 'formal job but the 'Gig' economy has been a Godsend for some to combine work with work ~ take Dan Sparkes as an example; he was a scaffolder working in the day-time but training evenings with Braintree. Now all that is changing and it's train by day at clubs like Sutton, Maidstone and Woking and (yes) the latter two are currently in 'hybrid' mode between part-time and a planned for full-time status......but there have always been full-time players who have had other careers. John Mackie who now manages Greenwich Borough has had his fruit and veg shops in North London for years and would be up at the crack of dawn to go to market before setting out his shops and only then go training at Reading, Brentford and Leyton Orient. After work at the football clubs it would be back to the shops to oversee the money and close up. Wally Downes used to hare off after training to man his fruit & veg stall in Shepherds Bush Market most days too and there have been loads of footballer/back cab drivers in London for decades.

Graham Westley made himself a millionaire combining playing and later management with running his own company.

I've met and talked to full-time players at Dagenham who supplement their low earnings by working in the evenings at places like Nandos and that is another factor.....clubs only paying what they can sustain. Boreham Wood can't match Tranmere (or even Dagenham) for wages and so they offer their players a contract where they can make supplementary money coaching in their academy and community football programme to top up their salaries and when you think about it this is a very positive move in that it earns those pr'os qualifications and a future in the game after playing.

Full-time Torquay United paying many players part t-ime money had a number of players working at Pro Direct recently and a number earning money in the health food game as part of a pyramid selling scheme.....all that fits in with the demands of travelling and irregular midweek football fixtures of which there are plenty in the Autumn but precious few until Springtime comes round again.

Going back to Braintree (and Dover for that matter when Chris Kinnear was a school teacher) evening training could only work for them because their managers ~ the Cowleys ~ were teachers themselves and so they recruited accordingly. The part-time clubs who have a day-time training schedule also need to recruit accordingly. There are many ways they skin their cats!
:goodpost:
Cannot argue with any of the above and actually it gives a really good idea as to how lower league football is a pretty complicated animal.
To the game ... i do think we will edge this one ...1-0 us Youngie to score in the 90 th minute att 1487
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Post by Yorkieandy »

merse btpir wrote: 01 Oct 2017, 20:37
At the risk of boring a certain poster who is very anti-me, I can tell you that it was Boreham Wood's intention to remain part-time when they won promotion to the National League but realisation set in within weeks of beginning their programme of matches that they would need more time with their players and thus need to turn full-time; and this immediately cost then their manager Ian Allinson who felt unable to justify giving up his job with Carlsberg at the age he was and the salary that job gave him and so he became Director of Football and they appointed his number 2 to manage the club........Allinson subsequently left and went and managed local rivals Saint Albans City on a part-time basis


I was under the impression that Chester made the transition from part-time (3 days a week) to full-time (4 Days a week) in the summer but I might be wrong on that.
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/sport ... e-12220863

Part time these days at the most progressive clubs means training in the day time and doing one's other employment to fit in around that, and as I have already made known many of the part-time players I personally know do not even have a second 'formal job but the 'Gig' economy has been a Godsend for some to combine work with work ~ take Dan Sparkes as an example; he was a scaffolder working in the day-time but training evenings with Braintree. Now all that is changing and it's train by day at clubs like Sutton, Maidstone and Woking and (yes) the latter two are currently in 'hybrid' mode between part-time and a planned for full-time status......but there have always been full-time players who have had other careers. John Mackie who now manages Greenwich Borough has had his fruit and veg shops in North London for years and would be up at the crack of dawn to go to market before setting out his shops and only then go training at Reading, Brentford and Leyton Orient. After work at the football clubs it would be back to the shops to oversee the money and close up. Wally Downes used to hare off after training to man his fruit & veg stall in Shepherds Bush Market most days too and there have been loads of footballer/back cab drivers in London for decades.

Graham Westley made himself a millionaire combining playing and later management with running his own company.



I've met and talked to full-time players at Dagenham who supplement their low earnings by working in the evenings at places like Nandos and that is another factor.....clubs only paying what they can sustain. Boreham Wood can't match Tranmere (or even Dagenham) for wages and so they offer their players a contract where they can make supplementary money coaching in their academy and community football programme to top up their salaries and when you think about it this is a very positive move in that it earns those pr'os qualifications and a future in the game after playing.

Full-time Torquay United paying many players part t-ime money had a number of players working at Pro Direct recently and a number earning money in the health food game as part of a pyramid selling scheme.....all that fits in with the demands of travelling and irregular midweek football fixtures of which there are plenty in the Autumn but precious few until Springtime comes round again.

Going back to Braintree (and Dover for that matter when Chris Kinnear was a school teacher) evening training could only work for them because their managers ~ the Cowleys ~ were teachers themselves and so they recruited accordingly. The part-time clubs who have a day-time training schedule also need to recruit accordingly. There are many ways they skin their cats!
I'm often 'anti-you' Merse as i'm sure like most on here you are me but credit where it's due, a really interesting and knowledgeable post which i enjoyed reading.
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Post by merse btpir »

I'm not anti anybody mate; I believe in vigorous argument and an adversarial nature to a forum.

Unfortunately; some can't be thick skinned or man enough to have an opposing view to theirs made strongly and with conviction and that has always led me into certain people's bad books.
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Post by tomogull »

merse btpir wrote: 01 Oct 2017, 21:00 No, I was referring to tomogull.

When you think about it; Boreham Wood's module for the players dovetails perfectly with the educational module of scholar Pro /PASE Academy programmes when young footballers take the Sports Science B Tech option which ~ if pursued at level 3 ~ gives then the equivalent of 3 A Levels at successful completion of their two year programme.
There is a certain irony about Boreham Wood which I'm sure won't be lost on even you. Manager Luke Garrard, who you championed on another thread, was appointed in 2015. HE IS A FORMER PLAYER (maybe even thought of as a club legend) WITH NO PREVIOUS MANAGERIAL EXPERIENCE. Exactly like Chris Hargreaves and Kevin Nicholson whose appointments you have always strongly criticised. The difference is that one is at a club which appears to be well run and supportive, the other two were at a club which is an utter basket case and giving no support.
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Post by merse btpir »

No; Luke Garrard was highly qualified as a coach when he got the Boreham Wood manager's job. He was (and still is) the Head of Academy and Assistant Manager to Ian Allinson.

He was originally an Academy Coach at the Club in 2008, before being promoted to Academy Director in 2012. Luke was the appointed Ian Allinson’s Assistant in 2013, a position he held for two-and-a-half-years. Upon Ian’s Departure in October 2015, Luke was appointed as First Team Manager.

He has been at Boreham Wood since January 2010. During his time as an academy coach at the club, Luke played a key role in helping to make the make PASE Academy become the biggest and most successful of its kind in Non-League Football....I think you would call that a time served apprenticeship of a well run club that is agreeably not a basket case; indeed if you look at the growth and development of nearby Stevenage you would see a similar rise from the lower reaches of the Ishmian League and a story repeated again at Bromley ~ all clubs who have a business plan far in excess of relying on levels of gate support.
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Post by Southampton Gull »

All in or around the catchment area of greater London and not the outreaches of Devon where any such plans would be wasted.
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Post by merse btpir »

We're talking about the relevant CVs of managers
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Post by Southampton Gull »

Yes, all managers who have been afforded the luxury of managing clubs in or around the nations capital where money is much more readily available to support those plans so it's hardly relevant. Did Nicholson have the advantage of funding for a PASE Academy? Does Owers?
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Post by merse btpir »

If you run the business properly a PASE academy helps fund the club ~ Chris Roberts worked that out when he set the equivalent of the day up with Paignton Community College.

There's too much self pity attached to Torquay United, Kevin Nicholson et al; the bottom line is he left the club ill-prepared for this season, at the bottom of the league with a fist full of unfit players and then started a facebook campaign of 'poor old me'
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Post by United62 »

First win of the season.... 1-0
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Post by Southampton Gull »

merse btpir wrote: 02 Oct 2017, 11:00 If you run the business properly a PASE academy helps fund the club ~ Chris Roberts worked that out when he set the equivalent of the day up with Paignton Community College.
No argument on that from me but we had no chance of that happening while Nicholson was here because nobody would or could invest in it.


merse btpir wrote: 02 Oct 2017, 11:00 There's too much self pity attached to Torquay United, Kevin Nicholson et al; the bottom line is he left the club ill-prepared for this season, at the bottom of the league with a fist full of unfit players and then started a facebook campaign of 'poor old me'

Absolute rubbish, that's just how you perceive those with an alternative view to yours that Nicholson was at fault. Others can see the incredible difficulties he had in trying to do even the most mundane of things with professionalism due to everything being done on the cheap. How you choose to take his open and honest apprasial of his time as Manager is up to you, I wouldn't call it a poor ole me campaign, just the honest sad reaction someone would have when losing a job they lived for. Each to their own.
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Post by TUST_Member_Rob »

merse btpir wrote: 02 Oct 2017, 10:23 We're talking about the relevant CVs of managers
how dare you raise another - quite critical point - arghghghghgh

Also Tomogull dont worry freedom fighter Merse needs his daily hit

:)
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Post by Dazza »

PT/FT Interesting stuff. It seems to now seems to be a very flexible definition depending on a host of things - the Cowley brothers was an interesting illustration. In peripheral Torquay with a still tourist based ( largely summer based) economy and lower than average wage it's certainly even more complex I suspect. The insult about loosing to part timers is not perhaps quite as damming as it once was?
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Post by MellowYellow »

Dazza wrote: 02 Oct 2017, 18:20 PT/FT Interesting stuff. It seems to now seems to be a very flexible definition depending on a host of things - the Cowley brothers was an interesting illustration. In peripheral Torquay with a still tourist based ( largely summer based) economy and lower than average wage it's certainly even more complex I suspect. The insult about loosing to part timers is not perhaps quite as damming as it once was?
There is no stigma in being beaten by a part time club on the odd occasion, but we have been consistent in that department for three seasons now, putting us in relegation dog-fights. Merse make some interesting points on part-time structures but these structures are nonetheless still part-time football. Sacrifices are made as two jobs is a lot to juggle. In part-time football there has to be an element of trust. There’s not a strict ‘you must follow this’ because everybody’s life is different at part-time football. Training twice or three afternoon or evenings a week has to be flexible, some player can finish at 2pm after working in an office, some player could finish at 4.30pm after labouring as a scaffolder all day. It’s even difficult to tell them what to eat and when to eat when their shifts are completely different to a full-time footballers.

Take Tuesday nights game against Maidenhead, most, if not all their players have a full time job outside of football, so football is a secondary income or put plainly, football is their second job, which helps to pay the bills. So one can say they play for the love of the game and maybe even see it as a hobby that provides a wee bit of money at the end of the month on top of their main profession e.g. teacher, plumber, solicitor etc. Tally that against our full-time professional players whose livelihood and living is dependant on a income from football with, in some cases a bit of pocket money. pyramid selling health products.

To this end, there should be clear cut benefits to being a full-time professional football player training 5 days a week with recovery time built in, in terms of game development and the subsequent success of the club. Our lack of success or dam right failure ought to be continually questioned and scorned upon as we sit bottom of the league in another relegation dog-fight after 13 matches with no wins, even against clubs with part-time structures.

The pro's to being part-time are, of course, continuity. If Maidenhead were relegated they would still keep the nucleus of their squad as any loss of income for the player would be negligible and it is only a secondary source. Whereas, if we get relegated, we will lose pretty much all of our squad (that may not be a bad thing) as they struggle to find another club or face losing their sole income, the money needed to pay the mortgages and bills.
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