Aldershot Town vs Torquay United 08.08.17

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Aldershot Town vs Torquay United 08.08.17

Post by hector » 10 Aug 2017, 09:34

portugull wrote:
09 Aug 2017, 21:14
Hector in response to your post earlier today I think Clarke Osborne has seen the potential at Torquay and he will be very unforgiving if Nicho after 8 games has us in the bottom 4.

I sincerely hope this does not happen but this is a very tough league and if we get injuries to a few key players we could be in trouble quite early on.
Nicho seems to have a habit of making bizarre decisions like leaving out Lathrope and Gosling last night and it makes me question his competence.He talks a good game but his tactics and team selection at times is very hard to fathom.
I do not think Osborne cares a toss what the fans think and if he sees we need an experienced manager Nicho will be toast.
This isn't a tough League at all, it is a shit League and one that Torquay fans have begun accepting finishing anyway adrift off the bottom is a good season. It is not. Simply being in this league is poor and another year of struggle should be viewed as unacceptable.

I do not share your optimism regarding Clarke Osborne. He has set out his stall that this club can only move forward with a new stadium. Kind of weakens his argument if they start doing that without a new stadium, so I wouldn't see it as a given that he would dispense of the manager. I'm not convinced Clarke Osborne really cares what division we are in.

The positive noises and 'off-field' improvements are probably only GI trying to demonstrate they are suitable custodians for the football club and therefore the plot of land it occupies. They are property developers after all.


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Post by goody2449 » 10 Aug 2017, 09:47

The disallowed goal cost us a point. There's no doubt about it, and anyone on here who wouldn't take 2 points from Tranmere and Aldershot in the first 2 games needs their head shaking. The ball was quickly cleared from a corner and returned into the goal mouth, all the players were pretty much still in position from the corner and therefore, Pittman, yes was in front of the keeper, but, where else could he of been? it was a terrible decision, which was confirmed by the amount of time the referees took to decide upon it.

As for their 3rd, I'm not sure it was a foul, the guy came from the edge of the box and had a free run all the way to the ball, this is what needs addressing, not where Fallon was standing. Perhaps he could of blocked the run but to throw up a still shot of a photo where he's standing looking at the ball is a little unfair IMO, as it doesn't show the full context.

Once we got back to 3-2 Aldershot were clever and kept the ball, I wonder if we were in that position if we would of done the same. I'm still convinced we will have a more successful season than the last few ( I know its not difficult!) but Rome wasn't built in a day and no one has ever been relegated or won the league after 2 games.


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Post by merse btpir » 10 Aug 2017, 10:31

goody2449 wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 09:47
The disallowed goal cost us a point. There's no doubt about it, and anyone on here who wouldn't take 2 points from Tranmere and Aldershot in the first 2 games needs their head shaking. The ball was quickly cleared from a corner and returned into the goal mouth, all the players were pretty much still in position from the corner and therefore, Pittman, yes was in front of the keeper, but, where else could he of been? it was a terrible decision, which was confirmed by the amount of time the referees took to decide upon it.
Then you are not familiar with the Laws of the Game and I suggest you read them and Law 11 in particular which will educate you about offside as it is currently interpreted in 2017-18.......

You say yourself Pittman was in front of the keeper. Hello? Does that not ring any bells then?

The amount of time taken to finalise the decision indicates that it was properly analysed and discussed between the two officials involved; one of whom ~ the linesman ~ indicated that there was a doubt over the goal by standing still and not returning towards the halfway line as he is instructed to do under the current interpretations which would indicate (that in his opinion) that there was no doubt a goal should be awarded. His raising of the flag and his subsequent placing of it indicated to everyone that it was offside that causing him to doubt the validity of the goal.


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Post by exilegull » 10 Aug 2017, 11:29

Merse - its great to have you back on the forum and while the jury is very much still out on Nicho I can't help feel you are losing objectivity and just firing off in all directions.

Gowling picked up a knock against Tranmere - at the start of the second half he sat down on the pitch with no one around him and had to have treatment. That Lathrope needs to be handled with care is no secret and I believe he also had some strapping on Tuesday.

Regardless of pre-season it can still take a few competitive matches to get to full match fitness and sharpness. We started the season with possibly the toughest game against a team who were very robust and it was a battle - regardless of whether it was a point gained or dropped in hindsignt of Tranmere being down to 10 then 9 men, overall it was a solid point. We then had to follow that up with a Tuesday night away trip 3 days later against another very decent side, then saturday we have another long trip to another decent side - following this we then have a string of games that we need to take a decent number of points from if we are to avoid last year.

In that context is it really wise to risk what are potentially you key players so early on as the season is getting started ? I'd rather have Gowling and Lathrope having the best chance of being fully fit to play against weaker sides than risk them in the second game of the season in a game where quite frankly in the context of last year any point is a bonus.

We can all argue about whether Lathrope was a good signing last year, but its now irrelevant - he's here and if we can husband him to get 25-35 fully fit games out of him then that is what is needed.

As a result of those two being out Anderson a CB was brought in at CB and Klukowski and DCM has been brought in at DCM.

I'm not a big fan of Reid but he certainly has more aggression and battle than Gosling so I can see why he was preferred even if I don't agree.

You then go onto to criticise Nicholson for comments he made immediately after the game, when he hadn't had the benefit of TV replays and isn't also allowed to talk to the officials and he stated he was very reluctant to make comments as he didn't yet know many details but was disappointed that what he thought at the time was a valid goal ruled off. I was listening on the radio, to commentators who had the advantage of a high vantage point and they also had no clue what was going on - even at the end of the game they were speculating as to whether it was a push, and offside against Pittman or even a handball. Also the third Aldershot goal is not clear - sure bad defending may have been involved but enough people on here also think the goalkeeper was fouled to justify Nicho in the immediate aftermath of the game, when all he has to go on is the reaction of his players, being upset in feeling a decision went against the team.


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Post by merse btpir » 10 Aug 2017, 11:55

OK; fair enough but the point I made about Gowling was that he is a number of players with question marks their reliable availability at this stage of their careers.....within a small squad that is not helpful is it.

The points I made about Nicholson's comments were that he obviously demonstrated an unawareness of exactly what the offside law states and over the goalkeeper being 'completely wiped out' ~ he wasn't was he!

Incidentally the commentary position for the radio team (although not a particularly high vantage point) could not be better situated to view that offside and I admit that at the time from where I was sitting in the other stand a possible by Pittman handball had entered my thoughts.

You say you'd rather have Gowling and Lathrope having the best chance of being fully fit to play against weaker sides than risk them in the second game of the season in a game where quite frankly in the context of last year any point is a bonus.........I would say that the so called 'weaker sides' caused us more problems last season than the perceived stronger ones.


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Post by desperado » 10 Aug 2017, 12:00

Looked like Rendels sole intention was to cleverly back into Clarke without jumping to stop him getting to the ball
so apologies to Clarke, I have some sympathty for him
re the offside why did the linesman only put his flag up after the Aldershot player ran up to him to protest, when
everyone else was halfway back to the centre circle ?
Shit league ? I dont think so, looks to get stonger each season, it may have been rubbish in 07/08 when Sills and
co were scoring for fun but not now


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Post by merse btpir » 10 Aug 2017, 12:21

desperado wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 12:00
why did the linesman only put his flag up after the Aldershot player ran up to him to protest, when everyone else was halfway back to the centre circle ?
Familiarise yourself with the IFAB directive to match officials prior to the start of the season and note their instruction:

When a goal has been scored and there is no doubt about the decision, the referee and assistant referee must make eye contact and the assistant referee must then move quickly 25–30 metres along the touchline towards the halfway line without raising the flag." (IFAB Laws of the Game 2017/18)

That he had not done so and stood his ground indicates that he had a doubt, and he then positions the flag to indicate the exact problem he sees.......that is the instruction to which the match officials are required to operate; there is no deviation from that and that is what they did.

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Post by Southampton Gull » 10 Aug 2017, 12:46

exilegull wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 11:29
Merse - its great to have you back on the forum and while the jury is very much still out on Nicho I can't help feel you are losing objectivity and just firing off in all directions.
enough people on here also think the goalkeeper was...............

Not a good post, that's an excellent post.
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Post by arrywithanh » 10 Aug 2017, 13:00

merse btpir wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 12:21
desperado wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 12:00
why did the linesman only put his flag up after the Aldershot player ran up to him to protest, when everyone else was halfway back to the centre circle ?
Familiarise yourself with the IFAB directive to match officials prior to the start of the season and note their instruction:

When a goal has been scored and there is no doubt about the decision, the referee and assistant referee must make eye contact and the assistant referee must then move quickly 25–30 metres along the touchline towards the halfway line without raising the flag." (IFAB Laws of the Game 2017/18)

That he had not done so and stood his ground indicates that he had a doubt, and he then positions the flag to indicate the exact problem he sees.......that is the instruction to which the match officials are required to operate; there is no deviation from that and that is what they did.
This is very true, the official didn't move, regardless of any post-goal protest made by Aldershot, he stood still immediately so the main thing is that the official was in doubt.


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Post by Richinns » 10 Aug 2017, 13:22

exilegull wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 11:29
Merse - its great to have you back on the forum and while the jury is very much still out on Nicho I can't help feel you are losing objectivity and just firing off in all directions.
I 100% agree with this evaluation. Merse comes across as a very intelligent and articulate poster but I feel his objectivity is being considerably clouded by his long term held view of Nicholson's credentials as a manager - which were established on his appointment.
In honesty it is becoming a little tiresome watching every situation or incident being manipulated so it can produce an anti Nicholson rant. Although some points merse discusses may be valid, I feel a lot of it is unfair - especially considering the situation Nicholson has had to face over the last couple of years.
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Post by tomogull » 10 Aug 2017, 15:19

hector wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 09:34
This isn't a tough League at all, it is a shit League and one that Torquay fans have begun accepting finishing anyway adrift off the bottom is a good season. It is not. Simply being in this league is poor and another year of struggle should be viewed as unacceptable.

I do not share your optimism regarding Clarke Osborne. He has set out his stall that this club can only move forward with a new stadium. Kind of weakens his argument if they start doing that without a new stadium, so I wouldn't see it as a given that he would dispense of the manager. I'm not convinced Clarke Osborne really cares what division we are in.

The positive noises and 'off-field' improvements are probably only GI trying to demonstrate they are suitable custodians for the football club and therefore the plot of land it occupies. They are property developers after all.
Of course, this is not the league we want to be in but as we all know, the club has disintergrated into possibly the worst situation it has been in since being accepted into the Footbal League all those years ago. It is going to take time to re-build the club, but whilst we have our suspicions of Clarke Osborne's true intentions, there are some positive signs this season that the club is being turned around. Although there is no news on the promised board of local directors which leaves Mr Osborne in sole charge and therefore unaccountable for his decisions.

I think you're being harsh in describing this as a shit league. Clubs that have got out of it in recent seasons have held their own in League 2. I'm thinking of Luton, Grimsby, Newport, Cheltenham, Barnet and I think Lincoln will establish thenselves as a league side. Paul Cox, the Barrow manager, thinks the league is getting stronger and I think he's right. Promoted sides this season - Ebbsfleet and AFC Fylde - are well backed financially and I think Maidenhead will do okay because they've got a strong fan base. Perhaps Halifax will struggle. What lets the league down is the level of the match officials, but I do agree with Dave Thomas in this week's Herald Express when he writes that making the Offside Rules, for example, more complicated makes it more difficult for match officials. Looking at the video footage of Aldershot's third goal, if that had been an away side that impeded the 'keeper as Clarke obviously was, would the goal be allowed to stand? I doubt it very much !!


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Post by desperado » 10 Aug 2017, 18:58

Thanks for putting me right on the rules, Mr Very Pleasant Gentleman, but I still say why does it take
him so long to put his flag up, indecision ? swayed by the Aldershot player running up to him ? the only one...
' OK I'll put my flag up' is there a time limit on this ? What if we were just about to kick off again, can he still
raise his flag then ?


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Post by goody2449 » 10 Aug 2017, 20:34

merse btpir wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 10:31

Then you are not familiar with the Laws of the Game and I suggest you read them and Law 11 in particular which will educate you about offside as it is currently interpreted in 2017-18.......

You say yourself Pittman was in front of the keeper. Hello? Does that not ring any bells then?
Should probably read this yourself Merse if your first reaction, as said in another post was that it was disallowed for handball! ^.^

I must admit I forgot to take my football rule book on Tuesday!!

from where I was stood on Tuesday nobody around me had a clue why it was disallowed so we all must of missed the flag.

Games gone now, hopefully we can get a result on Saturday


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Post by merse btpir » 10 Aug 2017, 20:40

desperado wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 18:58
I still say why does it take him so long to put his flag up, indecision ? swayed by the Aldershot player running up to him ?
Read again what I posted:
That he had not done so and stood his ground indicates that he had a doubt, and he then positions the flag to indicate the exact problem he sees.......that is the instruction to which the match officials are required to operate; there is no deviation from that and that is what they did.


It's not rocket science is it? His positioning tells the ref that he thinks there is a problem; that is the first requirement and the flag is reserved because to raise that in the event of the possibility referee opting not to take his opinion on board in making the decision would only cause uproar. At the instruction of the referee (remember they are in radio contact) he has indicated by his flag movement that it is offside which is thus communicated to all and sundry......the presence of the Aldershot player in his vicinity has nothing to do with it.

Those are the directives to which the officials are complying; they have done nothing wrong on that score and referee has delivered his opinion. Those are the laws of the game and the directives under which the match officials are compelled to deliver them.

That someone else disagrees with the decision is irrelevant; because you are aggrieved doesn't alter the facts or the outcome one bit. I didn't want to see the goal disallowed but I'm not making a song and dance about it because I know the Laws (which anyone can learn) and I know the current directives because I have also taken the trouble to learn them


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Post by exilegull » 10 Aug 2017, 22:46

Merse is there any indication that there were any question marks around Gowling's fitness before he signed - 2 seasons ago he played a full conference season and last season he simply seems to have fallen out of favour with the manager as a regular starter so did only played about 20 games but didn't have any injury problems - it seems most of the season he coached the youth team.

You make a bang on point about the lesser teams and for me that is a big question mark over Nicho - is he an effective motivator of the players?Currently I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say that the manager alone is not enough, he still requires leaders on the pitch which were sadly lacking last year. I believe he developed by recognising that and signing players like Gowling with experience and leadership hence the need to have those players on the pitch. There are no excuses this year though - if we cannot beat those teams then either it is his leadership, signings or tactics.

Lets see where we sit after 10 games.

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