Having had a chance to reflect on yesterday, what frustrates me is the jackyll and hyde nature of our side that has blighted our season. I've been to a fair few games, and most if not all have seen us perform well for part, and dismally for the other.
Yesterday was no exception. Southend are a good team. Last year they were a cobbled together squad who did well to be competitive. Now they are a cohesive team, younger players (Clohessey, Hall, Ferdinand) have come through and blossomed and they have a formidable strike force for this level. Yet for 45mins yesterday our rag-tag bunch of defenders kept them well marshalled. Sure they had some chance, but apart from the two I commented on in my match report right at the end of the half they were nothing more than heart-fluttering half chances. The stage was set for us to keep tight, continue to frustrate them and then later in the second half maybe look to get a bit more of attacking shape (via a McPhee for Oastler change), and maybe look to use Atieno to get in behind them if we brought him in for Howe.
But as it was, we completely folded as soon as we left the dressing room. As someone else stated, you could see the confidence shatter in the whole side as soon as the first goal went in. Suddenly basic mistakes crept in, and composure we had went AWOL and we had no chance of getting back in the game. I've not had the chance to see the highlights, but from the limited view I had it did seem that Robbo got too easily beaten for the cross and from then on we were on the back foot. One single, basic lapse of concentration and we got punished. Just like we did 6 minutes in against Gillingham.
Despite my somewhat gloomy report yesterday, I'm not jumping on any "Ling out" bandwagon. At this stage of the season, I don't see how that could make much of a positive change as we just don't know what the alternative is. There are very few managers out there with any sort of form or record, so I remain unconvinced anyone could do a better job. The players looked completely deflated second half yesterday - yes I do agree that it is a management shortcoming in the sense that Ling should be the one to bring them back up, but collectively each individual player can do that himself too so some of the fault lies with them also.
Although we do seem to be saying this regularly, the next 3 games are season defining for me. Starting with Wimbledon, they have been in great form but are coming off the back of a hiding. The thing with them is I look at their squad and it is full with a lot of little-known, young players. I was concerned as to how they would fare in L2, but a few wins breeds confidence and they have flown. On paper, I don't see a lot of difference in quality in personnel between them and us. If they Crawley defeat has broken them a bit, it might just give us a chance if our players can bounce back. Hereford, obviously started poorly but have picked up a little since Gary Peters came in as Director of Football. But again, don't see that their squad of players is much better than ours, particularly their defence. But a lot could ride on how we get on against the Dons. And then a week later we're off to Crewe, only a point better off than us at the moment and they have taken some real hidings too this season. They are potentially there for the taking too.
We have just come out of a bit of a tough run of games - away at Shrewsbury (6th), home v Morecambe (4th), away at Bradford (o.k they are only 20th but they are a big side who have a squad of players who should be doing better), home v Gillingham (5th) and away at Southend (2nd). With what happened to our squad in the summer, we were never EVER going to be battling for a playoff spot this season, so perhaps the aforementioned clubs were always at an advantage. Lets see how we get on against some of the other struggles on the next two weekends.
If that all goes badly and we have little or no more points on the board, then it is without a doubt panic stations.
League 2: Southend United vs Torquay United
Could be a lot more expensive if we don't act. I certainly would not wait until January. I think if we hit the bottom two then it obvious something is seriously wrong and based on Ling's previous failures to turn around desperate situations it would be folly for the board to sit and do nothing.yellowsmiffy wrote:Why even talk about sacking Ling!? It's so bleeding obvious that we don't have the resources to do so. Give him until around the Argyle away match in Jan I would say. However... the way we are playing I could see us losing pretty much every game until then.
Alsoooooo.... didn't he say pre-season that we had better than a bottom 8 budget though!? Didn't he say last week that there is a little money in the kitty if needed!?
Stevegull - for christ sake, it is league 2. Where are all these "very good sides". Ok granted everyone expected us to get hammered by an in form Southend and we were not disappointed. That defeat is not going to get us relegated I accept that. i will even accept that a run of seven or eight games without a win isn't the ultimate disaster. But we couldn't even get a point against ten men. We seem to be getting worse. There just isn't any evidence that we are going to start winning games.
If we lose the next two games (and believe me there is every chance that will happen) Lings position will look untenable.
There has been a lot of talk about the budget or lack of it but Ling has stated on more than one occasion that we have a middle third budget. That means that we have a bigger budget than a third of the teams in League 2. Why then does our squad look jammed up with shit?
The only possible conclusion can be that Ling has wasted money on sub standard players or am I missing something?
I honestly believe that if we lose the next three or four and hit the bottom of the table we will be so far adrift by xmas that will be it.
Our current peformances are embarassing. Someone somewhere needs to pull their finger out and do something. Board,manager or players - I don't really care but supporters need to see some action.
At least Bateson was proactive. All BAker seems to do is sit still with his digit up his arsehole.
If we lose the next two games (and believe me there is every chance that will happen) Lings position will look untenable.
There has been a lot of talk about the budget or lack of it but Ling has stated on more than one occasion that we have a middle third budget. That means that we have a bigger budget than a third of the teams in League 2. Why then does our squad look jammed up with shit?
The only possible conclusion can be that Ling has wasted money on sub standard players or am I missing something?
I honestly believe that if we lose the next three or four and hit the bottom of the table we will be so far adrift by xmas that will be it.
Our current peformances are embarassing. Someone somewhere needs to pull their finger out and do something. Board,manager or players - I don't really care but supporters need to see some action.
At least Bateson was proactive. All BAker seems to do is sit still with his digit up his arsehole.
Fairplay Brucie, you've made some admirable points there...
I'll also admit it looks hard to see where the next win is coming from, but i still feel as if we have enough quality to get out of the rut and secure a mid-table finish. Also, i actually agree with you that some money has been wasted on players that aren't completely good enough. Atieno would appear to fall into that category at the moment, but after he scored in both his pre-season games fans were calling for Ling to 'snap him up'. However, i also think Ling has added some decent quality. Howe was playing in League One last term and in my opinion would get into most League Two sides. Also, people forget that Morris was playing at a very good level in recent years and even last year helped a team get promoted out of this league. Clearly, he hasn't been at his best for us yet, and both he and the manager has admitted that, but i think he is an astute purchase. I also agree that failing to muster any kind of attack of note against 10-man Bradford is not very good to say the least!
IF we do lose the next two league games, i still won't be calling for Ling's head, but i do believe by that point he will have had a knock or two from members of he board telling him to buck his ideas up or something to that effect.
I'll also admit it looks hard to see where the next win is coming from, but i still feel as if we have enough quality to get out of the rut and secure a mid-table finish. Also, i actually agree with you that some money has been wasted on players that aren't completely good enough. Atieno would appear to fall into that category at the moment, but after he scored in both his pre-season games fans were calling for Ling to 'snap him up'. However, i also think Ling has added some decent quality. Howe was playing in League One last term and in my opinion would get into most League Two sides. Also, people forget that Morris was playing at a very good level in recent years and even last year helped a team get promoted out of this league. Clearly, he hasn't been at his best for us yet, and both he and the manager has admitted that, but i think he is an astute purchase. I also agree that failing to muster any kind of attack of note against 10-man Bradford is not very good to say the least!
IF we do lose the next two league games, i still won't be calling for Ling's head, but i do believe by that point he will have had a knock or two from members of he board telling him to buck his ideas up or something to that effect.
Maybe one day, Carayol will find London...
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bobby93
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Just from the highlights on iPlayer, I wasn't there...
First goal was a bit lucky through Manse's (?) legs and Bobby obviously not reacting particularly quickly although it was a well hit shot from not far out.
Could Bobby have come for the cross that led to their fourth? Clearly by that point it was probably looking like the writing was on the wall but I felt that was the point that whoever our lad on the post (O'Kane?) was making after the goal.
Anyway, we can't be surprised at losing to an in-form side. Would have been nice to get something, but apparently Ellis played quite well in the first half and we ruined their clean sheet so we have a couple of positives there. Call me an optimist.
First goal was a bit lucky through Manse's (?) legs and Bobby obviously not reacting particularly quickly although it was a well hit shot from not far out.
Could Bobby have come for the cross that led to their fourth? Clearly by that point it was probably looking like the writing was on the wall but I felt that was the point that whoever our lad on the post (O'Kane?) was making after the goal.
Anyway, we can't be surprised at losing to an in-form side. Would have been nice to get something, but apparently Ellis played quite well in the first half and we ruined their clean sheet so we have a couple of positives there. Call me an optimist.
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Father Jack
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And yet bobby, the manager points the finger at Ellis for goals 3 and 4 his post match interview? The WHOLE defence looked solid enough in the 1st half. The WHOLE defence slipped up in the 2nd half. Bringing Ellis in is not going to have any effect to be honest. The centre of defence is weaker for Robbo being moved to right back yet the main problem STILL remains the defence not getting enough shielding from the midfield.
Arse! Drink!
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Plymouth Gull
After the Macclesfield game at the start of September, I made a thread highlighting my thoughts about Martin Ling and the good job he'd done so far. I was impressed with the start we had made, and we sat in the top 7, which was way above my predictions for this year. I knew and expected it would be tough this year, after everything that had happened since the end of May - I often wonder what could have been had we been our usual selves in that game at Old Trafford, but that's done with now. I was away through most of pre-season, but kept up to date and it seemed like Ling had brought in some decent players and then some interesting ones, and we picked up some good results. We then seemed to continue that into and throughout August. The way Ling changed our formations and the way we played as we beat a Macclesfield side who were reluctant to attack really impressed me. But since then, it all seems to have gone wrong. Totally wrong. Since that Macclesfield game, I've witnessed the games against Cheltenham, Shrewsbury, Morecambe and then Gillingham. I've thought we've been okay in the 3 home games I've seen, the draws against Cheltenham and Morecambe were okay performances, but we spoilt it for ourselves defensively in those games. We should have beaten Morecambe but thats football. For the Gillingham match, strangely I thought we were the better side, but unfortunately again, defensively we let ourselves down, pretty badly, as it proved to be our biggest defeat in over 5 years, or something.
I can't help but wonder why our defence is so bad, especially as our assistant manager is a centre half who played at the very top. I really do have to question what he is doing - as from where I am, it looks to be not much, not much at all. All through pre-season Ling was saying how he wanted to work on our defence as a strong defence that is hard to break down can play a big part in success. Now it was all well and good saying that, but in the 8 years I've been watching Torquay, I've never seen a defence be so consistently dreadful. The opening day against Burton was the first sign - I put that down to needing time to gel and that, as Justin Richards seemed to waltz through on more than one occasion. However, it doesn't take 15 games to gel, and the fact that we had a successful first month suggested that we didn't need to gel that much anyway. However, we have conceded twice as many goals as we have scored in this run of 8 games, which really isn't good enough. Considering Taylor was a top level centre half in his day, he doesn't seem to be helping the back line here. Obviously the game has changed, but surely it hasn't changed so much that whatever he did in his day is now ineffective? And it isn't even like we have had our back line from last season decimated, we have lost ONE member of the defence that went the record-breaking 998 minutes - how long ago does that feel now!? I know Branston played a big role, but Nicholson, Robertson and Ellis are all good enough, in my opinion. Perhaps it's what they're being instructed to do which is the difference, I don't know, but I find it quite inexplicable to see how we've gone from being solid to being so bad. I know people say Saah gets to much blame, but from what I've seen, he's erratic, too similar to Robbo, and he seems a bit clumsy, but that's just my opinion. I hope for his sake he improves, and soon.
Another concern for me is the way Ling reacted to fans' chants near the end of the Gills defeat last week. The fact they called for Ellis, so he did it, is a worry as it gives the impression he's not sure what to do, if you get me? It sounds like he did well, which I'm glad about, but for me, Saah needs a spell on the bench. Robertson is better in the middle - he's been the strongest of the back four in recent weeks in my opinion, along with Nicho. Keep Ellis in there with Robbo and see what happens - everything else has been tried, apart from Rowe-Turner, but I don't fancy trying that just yet, personally. Not in the heart of defence anyway.
The confidence in the squad seems shot to bits, and there doesn't seem an immediate answer to getting out of the rut we're in yet. Of course, with two home games this week, you'd hope we can pick up a win or two. But I just can't see it. As other members have said, we don't even look like giving games a fight, once we go behind. Especially away from home.
I'll stop there as I've lost my trail of thought, but I'll conclude with my thoughts on whether he should stay or go, for what it's worth. Part of me is saying it'd be bad to sack him now as he's only been here for 15 games or so. However, a larger part of me is suggesting that he should be given until the Plymouth game next month. We have 3 league games, AFCW and Hereford at Plainmoor, then away to Crewe, who are also struggling to find any sort of form. Throw in the FA Cup 1st Round weekend, which is a competition we have done extremely well in in recent years, and is seen as a bit of extra money for the Club. That is ample time to turn it around, if we haven't won any of those 4 games, then I feel he should go. 8 games without a win isn't as bad a run as we've been on, as Trojan pointed out recently, but it's the manner of the performances which frustrate me. We have some good players at the club - O'Kane, Mansell, Nicho, Bobby, Howe, Robbo, and I don't know what it is, but I've never, ever witnessed such lacklustre, performances, away from home. As I said at the time, Shrewsbury was the worst away game I've ever seen in all my travels following TUFC. There didn't seem to be any passion, and fight, which was totally the opposite from the trip I made to the Greenhous Meadow in May.
My thoughts, and apologies for the long post - cheers if you read it all!
I can't help but wonder why our defence is so bad, especially as our assistant manager is a centre half who played at the very top. I really do have to question what he is doing - as from where I am, it looks to be not much, not much at all. All through pre-season Ling was saying how he wanted to work on our defence as a strong defence that is hard to break down can play a big part in success. Now it was all well and good saying that, but in the 8 years I've been watching Torquay, I've never seen a defence be so consistently dreadful. The opening day against Burton was the first sign - I put that down to needing time to gel and that, as Justin Richards seemed to waltz through on more than one occasion. However, it doesn't take 15 games to gel, and the fact that we had a successful first month suggested that we didn't need to gel that much anyway. However, we have conceded twice as many goals as we have scored in this run of 8 games, which really isn't good enough. Considering Taylor was a top level centre half in his day, he doesn't seem to be helping the back line here. Obviously the game has changed, but surely it hasn't changed so much that whatever he did in his day is now ineffective? And it isn't even like we have had our back line from last season decimated, we have lost ONE member of the defence that went the record-breaking 998 minutes - how long ago does that feel now!? I know Branston played a big role, but Nicholson, Robertson and Ellis are all good enough, in my opinion. Perhaps it's what they're being instructed to do which is the difference, I don't know, but I find it quite inexplicable to see how we've gone from being solid to being so bad. I know people say Saah gets to much blame, but from what I've seen, he's erratic, too similar to Robbo, and he seems a bit clumsy, but that's just my opinion. I hope for his sake he improves, and soon.
Another concern for me is the way Ling reacted to fans' chants near the end of the Gills defeat last week. The fact they called for Ellis, so he did it, is a worry as it gives the impression he's not sure what to do, if you get me? It sounds like he did well, which I'm glad about, but for me, Saah needs a spell on the bench. Robertson is better in the middle - he's been the strongest of the back four in recent weeks in my opinion, along with Nicho. Keep Ellis in there with Robbo and see what happens - everything else has been tried, apart from Rowe-Turner, but I don't fancy trying that just yet, personally. Not in the heart of defence anyway.
The confidence in the squad seems shot to bits, and there doesn't seem an immediate answer to getting out of the rut we're in yet. Of course, with two home games this week, you'd hope we can pick up a win or two. But I just can't see it. As other members have said, we don't even look like giving games a fight, once we go behind. Especially away from home.
I'll stop there as I've lost my trail of thought, but I'll conclude with my thoughts on whether he should stay or go, for what it's worth. Part of me is saying it'd be bad to sack him now as he's only been here for 15 games or so. However, a larger part of me is suggesting that he should be given until the Plymouth game next month. We have 3 league games, AFCW and Hereford at Plainmoor, then away to Crewe, who are also struggling to find any sort of form. Throw in the FA Cup 1st Round weekend, which is a competition we have done extremely well in in recent years, and is seen as a bit of extra money for the Club. That is ample time to turn it around, if we haven't won any of those 4 games, then I feel he should go. 8 games without a win isn't as bad a run as we've been on, as Trojan pointed out recently, but it's the manner of the performances which frustrate me. We have some good players at the club - O'Kane, Mansell, Nicho, Bobby, Howe, Robbo, and I don't know what it is, but I've never, ever witnessed such lacklustre, performances, away from home. As I said at the time, Shrewsbury was the worst away game I've ever seen in all my travels following TUFC. There didn't seem to be any passion, and fight, which was totally the opposite from the trip I made to the Greenhous Meadow in May.
My thoughts, and apologies for the long post - cheers if you read it all!
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Southampton Gull
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Martin Ling might well have said that we have a "middle third" budget, but that's assuming he knows the budgets of all other League Two teams which seems very unlikely to me. The budget on offer this season was well down on what we started with last season (some of that was redirected to help pay off Colin Lee) and it doesn't take a genius to work out clubs who will have a much larger budget in comparison with ours, the more you look at it I'd say we are firmly in the lower third.
Dave
Friend of TorquayFans.com
Friend of TorquayFans.com
Wasn't Ellis part of a defence that went a record number of minutes without conceding a goal. A back four comprising Mansell/Robbo/Ellis/Nico in front of the keeper doesn't look too bad.
So:
Bobby O
Mansell-Robbo-Ellis-Nicholson
O'Kane-Oastler-Lathrope-Bodin
Howe-Mcphee
Ok we could do with a central midfielder and a striker but at least that team has some sort of solidity about it - particularly if Ling could get in two new loan signings.
I don't understand why we cannot sign any players on loan - as every other club in the division seems to do it. Lings got contatcts at Swindon hasn't he. Kevin Amankwaah is currently on loan at Burton, just thte type pf player who is better than what we have.
There is too much fence sitting going on.
So:
Bobby O
Mansell-Robbo-Ellis-Nicholson
O'Kane-Oastler-Lathrope-Bodin
Howe-Mcphee
Ok we could do with a central midfielder and a striker but at least that team has some sort of solidity about it - particularly if Ling could get in two new loan signings.
I don't understand why we cannot sign any players on loan - as every other club in the division seems to do it. Lings got contatcts at Swindon hasn't he. Kevin Amankwaah is currently on loan at Burton, just thte type pf player who is better than what we have.
There is too much fence sitting going on.
I really do admire your loyalty and general sense of optimism Dave :P
Joking aside, it's very refreshing to read in this cynical day and age we live in.
Fair play to you.
Joking aside, it's very refreshing to read in this cynical day and age we live in.
Fair play to you.
CUFC4LIFE
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Southampton Gull
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I don't feel any kind of loyalty towards Martin Ling, I just understand some of the problems he has managing a club like ours. I also am firmly of the opinion that it's way too early to judge him a failure. He took over just a few weeks before the season started, had to get in quite a few players, covered positions that Buckle never did in 4 years and we started off playing very good football so I know the team has it in them to do well. His shortcomings at Cambridge are well documented but as I've stated before I think they are irrelevant given our own unique position. His job is to keep us in this division and I am confident he's got enough here to do that. Whether he can go on and do any better when our finances are on a more sound footing is not the issue for me. it's all about this season. I'd like to see him prove every doubter wrong as he seems a really genuine type of guy and after Buckle that is a refreshing quality to see in a Manager. Will he last the course? I hope so.
Dave
Friend of TorquayFans.com
Friend of TorquayFans.com
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Plymouth Gull
Yeah. Or even put Eunan in the middle and Danny on the wing - he's been pretty good recently I think.brucie wrote:Wasn't Ellis part of a defence that went a record number of minutes without conceding a goal. A back four comprising Mansell/Robbo/Ellis/Nico in front of the keeper doesn't look too bad.
So:
Bobby O
Mansell-Robbo-Ellis-Nicholson
O'Kane-Oastler-Lathrope-Bodin
Howe-Mcphee
Ok we could do with a central midfielder and a striker but at least that team has some sort of solidity about it - particularly if Ling could get in two new loan signings.
I don't understand why we cannot sign any players on loan - as every other club in the division seems to do it. Lings got contatcts at Swindon hasn't he. Kevin Amankwaah is currently on loan at Burton, just thte type pf player who is better than what we have.
There is too much fence sitting going on.
I just cannot see Ling ever dropping Saah, which is a big concern for me.
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Southampton Gull
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I'm still laughing my tits off at Brucie selecting McPhee 
Surprised he hasn't given the nod to Ricey as well
Surprised he hasn't given the nod to Ricey as well
Dave
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Friend of TorquayFans.com
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Father Jack
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Nick, some pretty accurate thoughts there. I shall just throw my two penneth in as well though. You cite the Maccy game as impressive. I would suggest (for the majority of the game) that we were poor and unable to find a way to break them down for the first 60 minutes of the game, we looked devoid of any spark of invention.
The position we found ourselves in was probably false due to the win against Rovers (probably the best performance overall this season) with the accompanying "anti-buckle" fawning and hysteria. That was followed up by 3 points from Aldershot (Im still impressed by managing that, despite a poor performance). The seeds of concern had been sown in my mind right from the start against Burton to be honest. What has happened since only serves to confirm we have a long struggle this season. No matter, I shall still be getting soaked tomorrow night no doubt
The position we found ourselves in was probably false due to the win against Rovers (probably the best performance overall this season) with the accompanying "anti-buckle" fawning and hysteria. That was followed up by 3 points from Aldershot (Im still impressed by managing that, despite a poor performance). The seeds of concern had been sown in my mind right from the start against Burton to be honest. What has happened since only serves to confirm we have a long struggle this season. No matter, I shall still be getting soaked tomorrow night no doubt
Arse! Drink!
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ferrarilover
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I'm not sure that your assessment of the Macclesfield game is fair FJ. They clearly came to park the bus and get a point, it's always hard to break down teams like that and I think it showed remarkable character in the team to keep on pressing for a goal when it would have been very easy indeed to sit back and try to draw them on to us, which would have had the inevitable effect of turning the match into a complete farce.
Matt.
Matt.
J5 said, "ferrarilover is 100% correct"
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