League 2: Southend United vs Torquay United

[AlexGulls]

For me the most worrying thing that happpend today was how easy we gave up after they took the lead. First half I thought we played quite well and Ellis showed why he should of been starting we looked abit better. Second half and the early goal kind of knocked the stuffing out of us and they comfortably won. We seemed to give up as soon as we went behind. I'm not calling for Lings head but based on that he has a lot to do to get the confidence back into the Players.

Saying that I thought Southend were excellent. Plenty of pace and strength I would certainly expect them to be in the top three. We certainly wont come up against teams with that quality every week but we certainly need to improve at the same time.

[Old_Yella CUFC]

How can you suggest that Cambridge is irrelevant? What utter nonsense. His job is still to try and win football matches. But he couldn't. In fact it should have been easier for him there.

Whilst at Cambridge, Martin Ling had access to a budget that was one of the top six in the division. He was also permitted to bring in his own fitness and nutrition coach as well as having access to training and medical facilities that would not be out of place in League One.

There are no two ways about it, Martin Ling failed spectacularly at Cambridge. We had a poor start to his first season in charge and looked like relegation candidates, but a late run of form meant a 10th place finish and fresh hope for his first full season with what he termed as "his players" and "his team". However, closer inspection of that run showed that all of the points came against sides in the bottom half of the table.

The following season was an absolute disaster. The players looked unfit, disinterested and demoralised. There were strong rumours that some players did not understand what they were supposed to be doing on the pitch and Ling even admitted in the local media that the players weren't doing as he told them but that he didn't know why that was happening. Once again we could not even draw against teams in the top half of the table, let alone get the odd 3 points. That season we won a paltry 11 games out of a possible 46 and finished just 6 points above the relegation spots. All on a top six budget. It was only thanks to Ling's successor that we managed to stay up in the end.

I am absolutely certain, along with a lot of other Cambridge fans, that Martin Ling would have gotten us relegated that season had our Board not done something. We were in free fall and with each passing abject defeat the situation just got more and more desperate. We were getting hammered by teams assembled on a fraction of Ling's budget that regularly played in front of a few hundred people.It wasn't just that we were losing, it was how we were losing. We were truly pathetic to watch.

That may sound familiar to perhaps scores of other managers and teams in the past, but you have to put it into perspective by considering the resources that he had at his disposal. We weren't just mid-table dross, we were relegation certainties that were getting spanked almost every week home and away. All on a budget that 18 other teams in the division couldn't even come close to. It's all well and good when a manager points to his budget to explain mediocrity, but what about when that budget and other resources at his disposal should bring about something more than a team sitting in the bottom 3 in February?

I understand why people want to give it more time. We went through the whole business of keeping him because we couldn't afford to sack him. In the end though it became so obvious that we were doomed to the drop that our Board had to do something, and they did it just in the nick of time.

I hope you folks don't have to wait for it to get to that point. Hopefully things will pick up and this whole discussion will become moot. Only time will tell. I'd say that he hasn't had long enough in the job yet. But I'd also say that for your sakes he musn't be given too much longer to get it right.

[ferrarilover]

Well, I wasn't overly fussed by ML before this match, and I certainly didn't expect us to get anything out of the match, so I'm in exactly the same position as I was before today's unmitigated catastrophe, that this team is nothing like the team we had last year, but that it really did ought to be good enough to stay in L2, given the naughty things it would likely do to the majority of the teams in the Conference (with due deference to the BSP, the standard is markedly different).
The argument between Dave and Hector is an interesting one. For me, Dave's point about ML's job at CUFC being so vastly different in nature to that which he is being asked to do here, and was previously asked to do at Orient, is a valid one. However, it cannot simple be set aside that Lingy was really not very good as the manager of a side expected to do well. Sadly, if the worst does happen (I'm not sure it will, but the possibility needs to be considered) that is exactly what we will be, a side in the Conference, quite rightly, expecting to bounce straight back. This will put us in a tough position. I'm not sure we could afford to offload Dinger and start again with a new man. This would be pretty awful for both the team and, I guess, (is he on a 1 year deal, or is it longer?) it would be pretty crippling financially (Colin Lee syndrome).

See my other thread about Plymouth v Swindon for more details.

Matt.

[Dutchgull]

Aside from the points scoring arguments here. The fact of the matter is we have not won a game in eight and do not remotely look like winning another game in eight. A manager who plays his blue eyed boy no matter what. We have a manager who does not speak to his players ......unless he has signed them. A team which has zero confidence and is fragile in the extreme. Has no fight no bottle and dare I say it couldn't care less except a few honest pros such as Manse & Nico and an overworked keeper.
Where the hell do we go from here ? I know all the problems about budget restraints etc BUT we will be in the BSP unless action is taken bloody soon. I cannot see this management (?) duo either having the know how or any ability to care what happens to OUR club. All the good work of the last few years is going to waste and is being frittered away. Its no wonder the crowds are down. I am a loyal supporter of over forty years but I am so concerned as to the future,it seems its downhill all the way under this regime. Unlike other clubs if we return to the conference I do not see a quick return unless another local wins the lottery and saves us and what is the likelyhood of that happening again ?????

[ferrarilover]

Aside from the points scoring arguments here. The fact of the matter is we have not won a game in eight and do not remotely look like winning another game in eight. A manager who plays his blue eyed boy no matter what. We have a manager who does not speak to his players ......unless he has signed them. A team which has zero confidence and is fragile in the extreme. Has no fight no bottle and dare I say it couldn't care less except a few honest pros such as Manse & Nico and an overworked keeper.
Where the hell do we go from here ? I know all the problems about budget restraints etc BUT we will be in the BSP unless action is taken bloody soon. I cannot see this management (?) duo either having the know how or any ability to care what happens to OUR club. All the good work of the last few years is going to waste and is being frittered away. Its no wonder the crowds are down. I am a loyal supporter of over forty years but I am so concerned as to the future,it seems its downhill all the way under this regime. Unlike other clubs if we return to the conference I do not see a quick return unless another local wins the lottery and saves us and what is the likelyhood of that happening again ?????

It is DEFINITELY my turn soon.

Matt.

[brucie]

You cannot claim that Lings last managerial job was irrelevant. Cambridge were one of the bigger clubs in non league football. You are only as good as your last job. Buckles' credibility is patently less now than when he left Torquay.
Whatever the whys and wherefores we currently have the WORST bunch of players we have had for god knows how long. Our team looks as bad if not worse than it did when Roberts was here.
As far as I can see our best chance of avoiding relegation is that there are ywo teams in the league who our going tol lose the rest of their games this season.
That doesn't look like Plymouth and Hereford and I would confidently expect us to lose to both of these in the not to distant future.
There does not seem to be a positive.

[Neal]

I havnt got a clue why anyone can support Lings position.

We can all see with our own eyes this team has lost total confidence, THAT IS THE MANAGERS FAULT!

We still have most of the team from last year, yes you can argue that we did lose some of the quality, that is true, but the replacments are woefull.

The forwards we had under Buckle were part of our defensive strategy, Zebs did his fair share and was invaluable but Paul expected the whole team to defend as a unit when required. ling has no strategy and no concept of this.

He must go now, prolonging this is ridiculous, WHY? We have played 15 games, we are shite, no confidence, leaking goals, what more proof do you want?

[gullsrus]

totally agree on your point about the defensive strategy . i cant remember seeing a tackle from a non defensive player. but then heres not many from the defence either!!!!

[oxgull]

This is so depressingly familiar. I am in a time warp as it may as well be the early 2000's or the Bryn era. We are in serious cr1p. WTF is going wrong?????? Reserves getting tonked and now the first team is complete sh1t. I feel sorry for Manse and Nico who, I'm sure, are playing their hearts out. Luckily (?) there is still a lot to play for but there is no confidence from those playing and those watching at the moment so with falling gates and more hearache on the horizon what is there to look forward to? Oh yeah! Christmas. SORT IT OUT MR LING OR YOU WILL GET THE OLD ALAN SUGAR FINGER!!!!

On a lighter note I spent the weekend in Bournemouth sorting out an upcoming bash at the Norfolk Royale Hotel when a few ex players came in to the bar. Darren Anderton, Gareth Howells and some others who's names escape me know. To top that though on walking around in the town yesterday a car pulls up and out steps Paul Gasgoigne!!! Really nice chap as he spent time talking and even had his photo taken with another group. made my weekend slightly better anyway.

[hector]

I pointed out why it IS irrelevant, you just choose to ignore it. The Orient job is relevant because it was a job at the same level as we find ourselves in and he succeeded once before.

As for your "fairly good authority" you're totally wrong...again.

What utter nonsense. To suggest a previous record is irrelevant simply because it happened in a different division is a ridiculous assertion to make. So when Everton appointed David Moyes as a Premiership manager because of his record as a Championship manager, in reality - if we apply your flimsy argument - it was irrelevant because his record was not in the Premiership. Likewise, in the case of so many managers recruited to clubs because of their positive record with smaller clubs.

Ling's record at Cambridge is utterly relevant. It demonstrates that in recent years he has lacked the ability to motivate, galvanise, organise teams effectively. In League 1 with Orient, in the Conference with Cambridge and in League 2 with Torquay. You kid yourself all you like. You deny what is staring us in the face. I expect 11 years ago you were probably in the same denial about Wes Saunders.

Having one of the biggest budgets, at one of the biggest clubs in the Conference, Ling was unable to muster a win in something like 6 months. That is his recent managerial experience. It demonstrates his abilities as a manager. You ignore it because it is inconvenient with your desire to see him as a good manager. No doubt if he had done well at Cambridge you would be using it as a reason to support him. But because it demonstrates his failings you choose to dismiss it as irrelevant. A ridiculous, nonsensical way of making a point.

I guess you choose not to let facts get in the way of making your point of view.

As for the Simon Baker story...you offer no alternative version...but that is what I was told by a source close to the club. Perhaps you are wrong.

[Southampton Gull]

15 games into a season, a manager given the remit to keep us in the division on such a small budget that the previous manager ran away, and you guys want to sack him. Those are the relevant facts.

I warned about this back in the summer, I predicted a season of struggle and a club having to run on a shoestring budget, so I'm not in the least bit surprised that it's heading that way, maybe some of you fickle lot need a dose of realism, expecting something other than what we're seeing now is nonsense.

Be careful what you wish for.............

[Ludlow Gulled]

At the end of the day, it's only 3 points lost and it doesn't matter what margin of defeat, there is never any consolation in losing...or is there? Having just watched France epitomise the plucky loser in the old 'egg-chasing' world cup final, I have to say I'd feel proud to be a Frenchie at the moment and optimistic for the future. And then the feeling of sinking despair I had in my stomach yesterday at about half past 4 rises again. If only we'd shown a little bit of pluck, I'd happily put that one down to experience. I didn't really expect to win at Roots Hall if I'm honest but nor did I expect such flaccid capitulation. I'm not sure that we have anything to learn from that drubbing, for that is what it was, other than that we do not have the quality of player to compete at the top end of this division. More worryingly, we do not yet have the leadership on or off the field nor the team spirit to make up for the lack of quality and lead a rear-guard action and consolidate our place in the division and perhaps start to build for a better future. My Southend supporting friends did not give me or the team much stick yesterday - we were too pitiful, it would've been like kicking a puppy. 15 games in and we are already evoking sympathy among the opponents fans - yoiks! My only consolation is that it is only 15 games. If fate decides we are to struggle this year - God forbid, even drop out of the league - I hope we do it plucky; slightly futile hope is so much better than despair.

[shaunicus]

Jesus wept, it's only October. Win our next two games (and lets face it, they are very winnable) and we're looking at the playoffs/top half.

We'll be absolutely fine this season. Just need to get some belief back - I've seen enough of us this season to suggest we're good enough to stay up.

[brucie]

Yes that would be great - if we win our next two games things will look alot rosier. The winless run of eight isn't that big a deal. The only problem with your arguement is that we don't have the players who will win three of the next ten games.

[hector]

15 games into a season, a manager given the remit to keep us in the division on such a small budget that the previous manager ran away, and you guys want to sack him. Those are the relevant facts.

I warned about this back in the summer, I predicted a season of struggle and a club having to run on a shoestring budget, so I'm not in the least bit surprised that it's heading that way, maybe some of you fickle lot need a dose of realism, expecting something other than what we're seeing now is nonsense.

Be careful what you wish for.............

It is not being fickle if you never agreed and do not agree with the choice of manager. It is not being fickle if you have only just come around to the conclusion that the manager is not good enough. If you want the best for your club and your view is that for this to happen there should be a change of manager that is a point of view. You may not agree, even though the facts suggest the opposite, but that is your opinion.

Being a supporter of a football club does not mean you agree with every decision the club makes. Otherwise we would all have supported the 3 dives and your out of Roberts or appointing John Cornforth as manager by Bateson.

Ling on paper and now in reality was a bad appointment. When will you change your mind. When the 15 games become 30? 42? Or when there is a crisis?????